Talk:Sofia Lamb

It's entirely possible that Lamb is using the Big Sisters in her Altruist goal. Freezing Mike 20:31, October 23, 2009 (UTC)

Eleanor

Where and when was it confirmed that Eleanor is in fact, Sofia's daughter? It's not really a big surprise since they have the same name, but I am curious. Thanks. --Ant423 16:01, December 16, 2009 (UTC)Ant423

what would be possible, yet kind of weird, was if Sofia was Eleanor, but all grown up. maybe she went crazy beacuse she was seperated from Subject Delta and began to call herself Sofia, all little far fetched but would be cool in game anyway. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Samsam424 (talk • contribs) 22:30, 2009 December 16. Please remember to sign your posts with ~~~~.

That would be impossible since Eleanor was a little sister who bonded to Sub. Delta ~11-12 years ago, meaning she would be in her twenties in Bioshock 2, but sofia appears to be a middle aged woman (It also says in her bio that she was a missionary in hiroshima, which was 1945). Anyways, it looks like someone from IGN stated that Eleanor is sofia's daughter, so I guess that'll do. --Ant423 01:00, December 17, 2009 (UTC)Ant423

Let's not forget that it was stated that she was a rival with Andrew Ryan around the time before the civil war, so, unless Ryan's best competition was a child, I'd highly doubt Eleanor could be Sofia Lamb. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by TheBigDaddy (talk • contribs) 01:50, 2009 December 17. Please remember to sign your posts with ~~~~.

Trivia

• Given Andrew Ryan's ties to John Galt, the protagonist in Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged, Sofia Lamb may also be a re-imagining of Ellsworth Toohey, the antagonist in Rand's The Fountainhead.[1] Like Toohey, she was originally a religious zealot, but then discovered collectivism, and used it to develop a fanatical following based on altruism and sacrifice. Another similarity to Toohey is a deep understanding of human psychology, which she uses to manipulate on a personal and widescale level.

I moved the preceding trivia to the talk page because it has no support from anything the developers have mentioned. Not everything in BioShock is Rand related. There has been mention of Lamb's character being inspired by the life of John Stuart Mill, but nothing Rand related has been mentioned. ~Gardimuer _{ ʈalk } 23:01, January 26, 2010 (UTC)

The first game is loosely based on Atlas Shrugged, some links are there, but it has a different story, the only power that Dr Sofia Lamb has is that which she can extort from others through manipulating them psychologically, she depended on the sanction of the victim, a theme in that novel, where the victimisers need the victims permission to either rob them or "throw them into the sacificial fires" (also to make the means to be sacrificed in and throw themselves into it), she is also a double parasite, the kind that Robin Hood was refered to as in that book, someone who "fed on the sores of the poor and the blood of the rich". Vae Infectus 00:00, March 25, 2010 (UTC)

the lamb encounter

Im wondering how lamb will function when confronted at the climax point of the game? will she become a splicer and attempt to attack delta. or will she just be like ryan was. maybe she will consume adam like fontain but on a controlled level instead of just takeing it all in at once like fontain did. I dont know but anyone else got ideas. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Biscuit12 (talk • contribs) 06:55, February 7, 2010 (UTC). Please remember to sign your posts with ~~~~.

John S. Mill

It says in the trivia part that Lamb's thoughts resembles those of John Stuart Mill and that Mill was a "socialist" philosopher. This is wrong. He was in fact a very influential liberal thinker. Look him up on wikipedia. Please remove or rewrite. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by TeddyB (talk • contribs) 11:45, 2010 February 13. Please remember to sign your posts with ~~~~.

Unregistered Contributors

Unregistered contributor tried to sabotage this page. I think UCs shouldn't be allowed to edit. Kelzow20 06:14, February 15, 2010 (UTC)

I messed up on the info box

i added info to the info box it stated she died but thats only in the bad endings not the good endings in the good endings Eleanor Saves her mother. anyway i edited it and the info box explowed what did i do wrong

Fixed! You can't add new fields to a template unless you use the proper format Kelzow20 23:28, February 15, 2010 (UTC)

You can also use the preview mode to get an idea of how it will look. Kelzow20 23:35, February 15, 2010 (UTC)

Sofia's redemption

In the good BioShock 2 ending, according to Eleanor Sofia never believed in the salvation of the people's morale, and the action of saving her from drowning, according to her words she and Delta left the "door open for her", so that means that possibly, Sofia changed her view of the world and people and started to change her ways. (KingShodo 01:02, March 3, 2010 (UTC))

Perhaps she realised that she was becoming what she despised, much like Andrew Ryan was, but unlike him, she realised it before it was too late. Vae Infectus 23:00, March 4, 2010 (UTC)

Or Not.   Just because others might be willing to forgive her and NOT give her the punishment she deserved, doesnt mean that Sofia would embrace that forgiveness/chance to reform. She could even spit in their faces at some later time. (just one more of her using of others while pusuing her demented goals)

I could see Sofia Lamb on the Surface in a Mental Institution if she started ranting about Rapture.

Sofia Lamb's Strategy

It's a winning strategy that Dr Sofia Lamb had to taking over Rapture, work from behind the scenes, not getting involved in the civil war between Ryan and Atlas, wait for both factions to wipe each other out and take over when it died down, converting the survivors and wiping out the rest. Those who were with her, lived as slaves (without realising it) and sacrificial victims, those who didn't, well...they wouldn't be able to resist the Raputre Family Vae Infectus 23:54, March 24, 2010 (UTC)

You do realize that the term "winning strategy" implies that the strategy in question succeeded...which, in Sofia's case, is incorrect. Key of Destiny 23:20, June 20, 2012 (UTC)

Everyone dies.  Does that mean that 'winning strategy' cant possibly exist  an oxymoron??    Winning Strategies can work for a time.  Its not part of of its definition that it has to be continuous eternally.

Info on Lamb's back-story:

The following is information from posts by Jordan Thomas in this thread on the 2K BioShock 2 Forums:

“	Lamb didn't break out to immediately re-establish the Family in Rapture. She made a tactical incursion to get Eleanor back, kept her head very low, and retreated to Persephone - her base of power. Her property was ruined by Poole and the drug-addled loons that used to be her least vocal followers. She wasn't re-imprisoned in Persephone; her people had overrun the place, and given that it's deep under Rapture, it was a relatively safe place to operate from. There are a few diaries from her up in areas she owned or frequented when trying to bring other recruits down to the former prison. But most signs of her had been destroyed by Ryan's people, except in places like the Drop, which weren't official districts in any way. The way we've regarded it is that during the events of the first game, Lamb was safe in Persephone with her allies, tinkering with her test subjects (including a healthy crop of Little Sisters they managed to nab, by the by, before they all grew old and started building the creepiest doll-houses you ever did see. That's a website joke for our web artist, Gabe.) First, Lamb often visited the now-abandoned HQ of Fontaine Futuristics to work with (and then on) Gilbert Alexander. But she had her hands full and didn't want to be murdered by a pack of shaved monkeys run amok. The diary after Ryan's death takes place much later, during one of several trips back up to FF. I know it's worded as if she's just gotten out - sorry about that. She's more reflecting on the fact that the whole Persephone experience ironically saved her people from the Ryan / Atlas war. Hence "Prison, it seems, was a blessing." Re-establishing the Family across the entire (remaining) face of Rapture only really took place well into Eleanor's adolescence, when Lamb needed enough ADAM to turn Gil into the Catch of the Day. Later, she was occupied with trying to break Eleanor's conditioning, to test the boundaries of her physical status as well, as the need for a new vessel became clear. Then, much later, the abductions began.	”
—Jordan Thomas

~Gardimuer  ^{ ʈalk } 11:09, April 11, 2010 (UTC)

Of course as Rapture fell apart, things like food and such got short or dissappeared completely which would kill people just as fast as Crazed Splicers could (starving to death...)     So the prison couldnt have been so isolated  if there was to be anyone left alive during  the civil war (that went on for at least a year).  Ryan kept the rest of Rapture alive (with great effort because of the destruction disruptions Atlas caused),  and  I doubt Ryan  would have sent food to a place controlled by Sophia Lamb knowingly.     Hmm, Cannibalism in Persephone ... an untold story.

Sofia Lamb did NOT give birth to Eleanor

Eleanor admits she did not give birth to Sofia in the "Eleanor's Progress" audio log. I have updated the 'Work in Rapture' section accordingly.

Sofia more or less seems to indicate in this log that she didn't want to give birth naturally and so Eleanor was either an adopted orphan, kidnapped at birth or was a surrogate child.

Please don't change it back again. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 220.245.77.149 (talk • contribs) 02:53, 2010 October 2. Please sign your posts with ~~~~!

You are referring to the part where Sofia says: "My physical participation in her birth was... minimized, of course -- it is vital that I am unhindered by nature's crude bias."

This statement is vague, and could mean anything. Personally, I took it to mean that Sofia was highly sedated with painkillers while giving birth to Eleanor, making her "physical participation" minimal. It is best not to assume the meaning of such a statement. ~Gardimuer  ^{ ʈalk } 04:40, October 2, 2010 (UTC)

It's also important to note that after she mentions that she must not be hindered by nature's crude bias, she leads in to mentioning that "I will be, above all, her intellectual progenitor..." as opposed to being Eleanor's natural, biological progenitor. This isn't nearly an assumption at all, the conclusion is quite clealy where "nature's crude bias" is a euphemism for the physical act of giving birth.

I guess though it is possible to read this statement as meaning that Sofia took drugs during the birth to avoid the pain, it's odd that she would then lead in to stating that she would be any kind of a progenitor besides a biological one... If you were to assume that the case was that Sofia did give birth Eleanor then this statement would perhaps indicate some kind of emotional detachment between Sofia and Eleanor which seems to contradict to the feelings Sofia expresses for Eleanor in other logs and in her messages to Delta.

220.245.77.149 07:36, October 2, 2010 (UTC)

Yal have have heard of a c section where they take out the baby from the mother with out giving birth to her its seems that sofia is eleanors biolical mother but she just had a c section so she wouldnt have to give birth nartaly it makes much more snce DeirdreKent101 15:52, November 3, 2010 (UTC)

Given her personality, I find it most likely that Sofia had Eleanor grown in a test tube of some kind but using her (Sofia's) genetic makeup. In this way, Sofia is Eleanor's biological mother, but was able to avoid "nature's crude bias". Is it a sick and horrifying way to give birth to a child? Absolutely, but doesn't it sound like something Sofia would do? Key of Destiny 23:24, June 20, 2012 (UTC)

Quotes supporting last edit

My edit for Crawler involvement

"Do I seem delicate to you? Doc says I'm in a delicate stage. A chrysalis!"

"Come on! Lamb can fix you! She fixed me!"

"I love the Doc! Ya know, *Stuttering strongly* she really fixed me up, fixed me up."

"You burned up all my memories! How could you?!"

"They run the current, and a couple more voices go away... I just wanna be all alone in my own head... SHUT UP, ALL OF YOU!"

"Electroshock...? It don't sound so good, but... I trust ya, Doc! You'll make me better." Houdini25 (talk) 16:54, May 8, 2013 (UTC)

Sophia and Delta's relationship: Killing NPCs

It seems, and I know this may be wrong, that Sophia wanted Delta to kill Poole and Alexander. When you look at it one way, it looks as if Lamb wants to let Delta have revenge on the mole for turning the then-human 'Jonny Topside' into Ryan's forces, eventually becoming a Big Daddy. With Gil, Lamb says all this stuff about what sane Gil wanted before he turned into Alex the Great. Look at it another way, and it seems that Lamb is trying to use deciet and guile to provoke Delta into becoming her personal executioner. here's why:

1) She made it obvious that she knew what Poole did, and would want to punish him for decieving her, flooding Diyonysis and the resultant mass murder. She even called it her home so the flood would sting considerably.

2) Gil was to be a composite of all of Rapture's genius. Instead he was a failed experement, but the logs he left, along with the Family's ideals, could give her an arguement for exterminating the failure in the tank.

3) She attempts to destroy ALL of Persephone, along with everyone in it, just because she had been unable to kill Delta, or otherwise prevent him from reuniting with Eleanor. She even tells her daughter that they could go to the surface, despite the fact that it would potentionally mean killing far more followers than Poole did in Diyonisis.

That is probably the tip of the iceberg, but it seems to me that Lamb senior isn't as benign as the Family so adamantly believes. Could this be a possibility? Dark Swarmlord 21:25, February 25, 2011 (UTC)

Well, she's the main villain, so she's not exactly benign to start with; but you're right. At some points, it's as if she were goading you into killing the NPCs. With Stanley, especially, she goes on about how she forgave him despite knowing that he sold her daughter to Fontaine and destroyed her sanctuary all along; and the fact that you're trying to get to her makes you want to kill him just to prove you're not as cold as she is. --Willbachbakal 22:54, February 25, 2011 (UTC)

Well, killing him is what she wants, so if you do as she says... ah... erm.... that would mean IF Delta did as she said then Eleanor would potentially be evil because of her mother. But it would be Delta's fault for listening to the evil b**ch in the first place. But the point is, if you kill Poole/The Great, then you're no better then Doc Lamb. Dark Swarmlord 23:02, February 25, 2011 (UTC)

Throughout the game, Sofia Lamb refuses to see Delta as anything more than a mindless brute like the Alpha Series enemies. Let's look at the very first NPC choice for an example: Grace Holloway. First, Sofia talks about how unfortunate Grace's life has been, asking Delta if he deserves to take her life after such hardships. If you choose to spare Grace, Sofia simply ignores your kindness, believing that (in her words) "your crocodile tears may poison her with doubt, but I am not so easy a mark". Key of Destiny 23:28, June 20, 2012 (UTC)

To Sofia Lamb people are tools to be used then discarded or destroyed if inconvenient  - lets consider the children kidnappings from the Surface :

How many botched kidnappings were there - I dont recall any clipping mentioning 'red lights in the water' and an account of some  parent/relative or the child itself being killed or maimed in an unsuccessful kidnapping.

How many more kidnappings (successful or unsuccessful)  were there than the SitS info showed  (how many were never reported, etc..)

What happened to all the children who were kidnapped but who werent appropriate for the Little Sister 'conversion' ??   whom it didnt work for or who couldnt be conditioned for the task?-   What was their fate ??  (those cannisters of crematoria ash in Persephone a clue??)

---

Death toll of 'Unbelievers' who found out later that what Lamb and her lackeys say one day was no longer true the next.  Cult of Lamb - talking people into 'offing' themselves  for 'the common good' ??    It takes pretty strong influence to overcome self-preservation (and remember these werent like Japanese people taught from Childood that they should DIe for the Emperor....)

"Ryan erased all public record of her existence, making her disappear just as he had done for many other public dissidents"

Is there any evidence of this other than the 'make her dissappear'  which may be more a case of 'out of sight, out of mind'  when she was taken out of the City.

Evidence to the contrary is that we see her clinics/posters in BS2  - if she was erased wouldnt ALL that be gone ??

Would she bother to put all that stuff back up in that particular form  when she 'Returned'  and started foisting 'The Family' on people outside of Persephone ??

'Dissidents'  -   or Seditious Dissadents  or Conspirators ??  And 'many other'  ??   Persephone would be a place of exile for non-repenatant criminals first and foremost - for people who continually refused to live within the law ((and No there had to be law in Rapture thats just a bizaare illogical motto - you cant have a Commercial City level of organization run by some anarchistic system of no law, no enforcement.))

ADAM user?

In the intro, Sofia uses Hypnosize Big Daddy or something similar on Delta, meaning she had to have used ADAM at some point, but she shows no signs, direct murderous rage, or physical deformities typical of ADAM use. Is this an oversight or by developer choice?

GothLoliManda (talk) 23:59, October 4, 2013 (UTC)

First of all, she didn't throw the Hypnotize Big Daddy Plasmid, another Splicer did.

Second, ADAM has always shown to be a metaphor for any type of addictive substance (alcohol, tobacco, cockaine, opium, etc.). Just as a single cigarette is not likely to cause lung cancer, a single use of a Plasmid is unlikely to cause madness or tumors, take Jack for example. Users only become Splicers after repeated/excessive abuse of the stuff.

Unownshipper (talk) 06:41, October 5, 2013 (UTC)

Ah, I was mistaken... It's been a while since I've played Bioshock 2. Whoops... >_<

GothLoliManda (talk) 19:39, October 8, 2013 (UTC)

"Whilst living in Hiroshima, Japan during World War II,"

I dont know who came up with this stuff, but incarcerated in a foreigner concentration camp would be the only way she would be "living in Hiroshima, Japan during World War II",   or can we add 'collaborating with the enemy'  as a second possibility?  (seemingly Ryans people conveniently did a very poor job of vetting her for inclusion into Rapture).

Testxyz (talk) 14:31, October 10, 2013 (UTC)

She could have lived there before the WW2 situation erupted, but I don't think the game ever told that she lived through the war at Hiroshima, though I could be wrong.

Also, she may have made her herself a name in psychiatry after the war and so probably joined Rapture with the last arrivals of new citizens. If she was proposed a ticket to Ryan's utopia, that's because he saw her gifted in her art (he admires the talented, don't forget), and a way to keep under control those who had issues in living in Rapture.

Pauolo (talk) 15:51, October 11, 2013 (UTC)

Remember that the Japanese were very xenophobic and their militarism phase started way back in the early 30s (when they invaded China) .  Foreigners were treated with suspicion even without a war in progress.  She would probably have to have come AFTER Hiroshima and then swe would have to have spoken Japanese fairly well to do her psychology (and applied to Japanese psychology as well).  They should have said she had previously praciced in Hawaii where ther were large numbers of Japanese to develope her skill, etc...

Supposition ??

Also Ryan wasnt after 'control',  it was the constrainment/'cabin fever' that some Rapture citizens were feeling which he saw as an impairment to normalness in his city  (Notice he didnt just say 'tough cookies', he brought in some measures to try to solve the problem) .   Actually if the place was more like what they are showing in Buried at Sea  (all airy and spectacularly voluminous -- rediculously HUGE windows)  there would be alot less reason for that effect. Testxyz (talk) 22:38, October 11, 2013 (UTC)

tinkering with Plasmids and Gene Tonics

"From 1959 to 1960, Lamb remained in Persephone, tinkering with Plasmids and Gene Tonics on her willing test subjects, and making tactical excursions to bring down more supporters from above."

" long, dear friends she made in Hiroshima"

So Sophia Lamb was a collaborator with the Japanese in WW2 ??

"long dear"  - Japan became extra militaristic (coup) in the early 30s and would have seen her as a alien spy  unless she worked for them.

Who says she was doing  " tinkering with Plasmids and Gene Tonics".   Sinclair was (diaries messages mention that) and maybe that gave Sofia ideas.  She was doing her 'pacification' therapies on inmates for the warden.   How much she was able to 'stick her head out' until Ryan was dead is speculative (You think Ryan wouldnt hear and just send someone down to make sure she wouldnt be a problem ever again or to reassert control of the place and put someone in charge to run the place properly ???)

Testxyz (talk) 13:11, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

"One man chose a city, free of law and God. "

Except that Ryan's Rapture could NOT be free of Law.    You cannot have a modern society (which did last 1946-1958 without significant failure)  without some laws.    It was more "Free from Government" which Ryan saw as a channel for parasites to gain power over others.   There still would be a Social Contract with agreed upon limitations of individual Rights (as in - your freedom ends where it starts interfering with someone elses freedoms).        The writers are ignorant (willfully??) of the parts of Objectivism they had lacking which makes for a working system.    Again, a  Failtopia for a shoot-em-up game  -- literature-wise, the backstory would be rejected even by desperate pulp fiction publishers as unrealistic and stilted.

75.36.142.155 05:29, August 28, 2014 (UTC)