Talk: Sander Cohen

The explaination on what happens in the game from the point of view of the player is completely useless. Yes, explaining the fight is helpful, but i've found that using proper nouns instead of 'player' makes for better and more effective encyclopedic development. Someone please fix this, I've done all of the rest of the characters that don't have "Jack" in for player.

Additionally, this could do with more information about Sander himself, his insanity, and odd obsession with the Quadtych. - (Sheedy) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.183.180.84 (talk • contribs) 21:27, 2007 September 10. Please sign your posts with ~~~~!

I agree that this article needs a good bit of cleanup and rewriting to be more in line with other character articles. Mainly what I see in good character articles is that it pulls together a description of the character and their history from all the sources available: gameplay, diaries, radio msgs. That makes it much more than just a walkthrough of your encounter and interaction with the character. Just a matter of who gets motivated to do it =) --Klivian 21:34, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, I've been roaming around fixing little grammar/spelling errors, bad sentence structure and the like, changing things into better perspective. Is there a way to register with the site? (I'm new to editing wikis) -(Sheedy) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.183.180.84 (talk • contribs) 21:45, 2007 September 10. Please remember to sign your posts with ~~~~.

Yep.. top left corner of the site, there should be a Login and Create an Account link: [Create Account] --Klivian 00:53, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Hi folks, great page. A couple of things:

1) I've played the PC version and don't see much difference from the Xbox version. Specifically, if you kill Cohen in Olympus, he is not "alive and instantly aggressive towards you" in Frolic. And you have his key and can open the Muse Box. Also if you set fire to the Quadtych after killing Cohen in Olympus, he will appear and attack you. All very much like the Xbox. The one difference I haven't tried is the concept of "unlocking" by killing Cohen after finishing the masterpiece (third paragraph in the Xbox version), but that sounds like something Xbox.

Maybe the small patch you get with the PC version makes it like the Xbox version? (That note for the PC was made by Chasmyr on Sept. 1, but I got BS on Sept. 16 with its official release.) Can someone see if they get the same thing I do on the PC - they don't see Cohen in Frolic if they kill him in Olympus, unless they burn the Quadtych?

2) As you can see, I've posted all of Cohen's "gifts". But I'm not sure it's in the spirit of the rest of the page - rather like a bio. (I like it!) If folks want, I can instead just have a link from the bottom of the page (before my editing) to a separate page, with the detailed breakout. And leave it like a bio. Or... maybe it's time to turn it into having separate sections, with the Bio being the first section.

Your thoughts? Great wiki! - MikeTheRed 18:58, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

One note: Anna Culpepper was not "Ryan's Songbird"; that was a sarcastic term used by her to refer to Sander Cohen, alluding to his excessive devotion to Ryan and his propagandistic music. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.212.153.138 (talk • contribs) 03:45, 2007 November 6. Please sign your posts with ~~~~!

Sander (Homosexuality?)

It seems to have slipped by whoever wrote this bio that Sander Cohen is very much a homosexual. His "desciples" were also his lovers, as was Andrew Ryan, all implied in several audio logs and other dialogue. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.215.0.117 (talk • contribs) 04:48, 2007 November 14. Please sign your posts with ~~~~!

Sander may not have been Ryan's lover, but he did have feelings for him. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.215.0.117 (talk • contribs) 04:49, 2007 November 14. Please sign your posts with ~~~~!

Although it's more of a "intellectual" love, similar ideals. Vae Infectus 03:56, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

Why such a need to explicitly & repeatedly "classify" Sander as homosexual? (I'm referring to the article itself, not this discussion/talk page, btw.)

As it stands, the article goes out of its way to tell us that, essentially, "We're not certain that Cohen is gay -- but we think he might be. There's no real 'proof' that he's a homosexual, so we can't be absolutely certain."

Now, I realize the author(s) probably didn't intend this to come across as homophobic. That said:

(1) None of the other character bios discuss sexual orientation...much less "suspected" sexual orientation. Why doesn't Ryan's bio tell us that he was "presumably heterosexual, since he impregnated Jasmine Jolene, although this could mean he was merely bisexual; there is not enough evidence to conclude either way." Why doesn't Jack's bio tell us that his "sexual orientation is unknown," or "presumed heterosexual," etc? Where is the footnote at the bottom of every page informing us that "All individuals are considered to be heterosexual unless stated otherwise?" Etc, etc.

(2) The "need" to tag Cohen with the "believed to be gay" label results in another ugly side effect -- the immediate urge to tell us "but we don't know for sure" because...why? Obviously the intent here is to avoid disparaging Cohen without sufficient proof, and since gay=bad, falsely identifying him as such would be mighty disparaging, right?

All in all, it's just ugly and unnecessary. Nowhere else in this wiki is a character's entire sexual orientation/history deemed relevant; instead, the tone is much more encyclopedic/factual. Example: When describing the "character" Atlas, one can omit the tabloid-sounding "presumed to be heterosexual" stuff and merely present the facts as given -- eg, "Atlas enlists Jack to help his family (or "his wife and child" or whatever) to escape Rapture." (We learn Atlas is a father and a husband...these are plot points that are appropriate to speculate about. Presumptions about his entire sexual history are, presumably, not.)

The two posters above me seem to understand this; both merely discuss a couple of perfectly legitimate questions in encyclopedic, factual terms: Some evidence suggests Cohen was secretly in love with Ryan, but some speculate Cohen and Ryan were lovers some time in the past. Of course, only a moron would think that a man could say "I loved him" (when referring to a powerful, charismatic individual with celebrity status) without meaning that in a sexual sense...but that's beside the point. :)

Sorry for the long rant -- but I'm new to this wiki and I'm really overwhelmed with how excellent the writing is throughout many/most of the storyline and biography sections. So you can imagine how it was really disappointing to run across Cohen's bio and find myself in the middle of this weird focus on whether a character is "gay or not gay" when that's *so* far from the point, has nothing to do with the plot, and (by the way) we really don't know the answer anyway.

Food for thought: Near the beginning of the article, the author suggests Cohen's character is believed to be based on Salvidor Dali. Now, I think that's a big stretch...but either way, it provides us with an excellent real-world example: throughout Dali's career, we know (as in, the following statement is backed up by substantial evidence including Dali's own testimony) the brilliant artist explored all kinds of sexual experiences with various men and women *during* his long-time marriage to the woman he repeatedly called "the love of my life." (Dali would later go so far as to incorporate her actual image into every one of his Master Works, the enormous paintings that each took multiple years to complete, and were proclaimed by the artist as the pinnacle of his entire life's work.) His wife was fine with him fooling around, and he clearly adored her, but they never had a child.

So...was Dali (the purported basis for Cohen) gay? Or did his marriage (and adoration) to his wife somehow make him immune to that charge? Was he straight before and during his marriage UNTIL the microsecond prior to his first homosexual encounter...? And did that make him gay, bisexual, or just "curious?"

Rather than try to find an appropriate label for the guy, it might be a bit easier to merely describe his life (and how he lived it) in detail -- but just the facts, ma'am. :)

Okay, ranting tirade ending in 5..4..3..

//Fjord Ubiquity// —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Fjord Ubiquity (talk • contribs) 14:28, 2008 June 25. Please sign your posts with ~~~~!

It could just be that he isn't a homosexual, if one observes the audio file when he notably remarks "a man I once loved", one must keep in mind that he considers himself an artist, a musical genius, and a literary master. In keeping with this, the love remark could well mean that he simply considered Ryan a close friend, as many plays from Shakespearian and similar works made similar comments, and only meant someone who is close. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.57.64.88 (talk • contribs) 15:00, 2008 December 16. Please sign your posts with ~~~~!

In response to the comments above concerning Cohen's sexuality: While I agree with what was said, I feel as though those assumptions about Cohen came from the other well...assumption, that his disciples are his former lovers. Cohen makes a comment over the radio about Finnegan stating, "I admired his ... carriage." While I am not saying this is necessarily true, I am just simply speculating where this idea could of came from. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Atlas the Fisherman (talk • contribs) 07:20, 2009 May 21. Please sign your posts with ~~~~!

It should be noted that

Sander Cohen likened himself to a "pregnant momma" upon nearing completion of the quadtych.

a.This may be a "philosophic homosexuality"
b. "Philosophic homosexuality" : the idea that genders are interchangeable.
c. Point b may have a prominent part in rapture's genetic future.

2.In an interview about the origins of Bioshock,Ken Levine stated :

'There was another story before that about a cult deprogrammer. I don't know if you know what a cult deprogrammer is; it's someone who goes to take people out of cults to deprogram them so they no longer believe in it. It's a weird thing, because they're basically kidnapping people.

[There are] people who hired people to [for example] deprogram their daughter who had been in a lesbian relationship. They kidnap her and reprogram her, and it was a really dark person, and that was the [kind of] character that you were. It went through a lot of changes. That wasn't really fleshed out, we just needed something, and I said, "Maybe I'll develop this, maybe I won't."

3.Are little sisters "heterosexual"?

Kantarky 19:19, July 13, 2010 (UTC)

To be fair, it might be presumptuous to say that the article in question is homophobic. For one thing, we have to keep in time that while this game was made in more modern times, its setting is decidedly not modern. It takes place in the sixties, and in a city that's stuck in the mid-forties. Given the setting, a character that is possibly homosexual is definitely worth mentioning, given what that would mean for a person living in that time period. A character being heterosexual would in no way provide the insight into the struggles and hardships that they would face because of their sexuality (or attempt to hide said sexuality), while a character being homosexual definitely would. Just as it'd be worth mentioning a character's religion if they were in Nazi Germany, or worth mentioning a character's race if they're living in the Civil War era. In this case the setting makes it an important detail, whereas a character being heterosexual wouldn't.

Also, it hardly seems likely that any hesitancy to label Sander Cohen as being gay would come from a fear of disparaging him. He is, for all intents and purposes, a mass-murdering psychopath. He kills people for "art". The assumption that labeling him as homosexual would taint his reputation doesn't seem to be particularly well-founded, given his general character. More likely, the hesitancy would come from an attempt to not offend the LGBTQ community by stating that the only known homosexual character in the game happens to be a mass-murdering psychopath who likes showtunes...

67.61.209.121 06:46, August 24, 2011 (UTC)

Actually, there is a passing mention of his sexuality in the trivia section already, although it only lists it as "ambiguous". There used to be a more elaborate description in the Trivia section, but for some reason it got taken down and nobody's decided to replace it yet. However, what with the hints in the dialogue, the flamboyant persona, his propensity for musicals, and now confirmation by the developers, it doesn't take a genius to figure out he's gay. Considering he's one of the most popular (and kinda likeable) characters in the BioShick series, I don't think it would be offensive to list his sexuality more explicitly, especially since it's a part of his personality. --Willbachbakal 10:55, August 24, 2011 (UTC)

Ken Levine has confirmed Cohen is gay. He speaks about the character here http://www.next-gen.biz/features/playing-it-straight?page=0%2C3 I'm not qualified to edit the wiki to include this information, but I hope someone will. 67.197.213.71 04:21, August 27, 2010 (UTC)

Alexander Cohen?

I do not have an account here, but was curious if anybody else thinks that Alexander H. Cohen, "Lord of the Flops", could possibly be, in some way, related to the character design of Sander?

[1]

203.113.233.224 17:06, 4 June 2008 (UTC) kurushi

That is a very fair point. If anyone else noticed that. Look at the phonetic spelling of Alexander H. Cohen's name. Alec-San-Der. take away the alec, and you got Sander Cohen. - Barnez.

Random Comment

In the movie "Last Kiss", isn't the art studio called "Sander Cohen"? Just thought that was interesting. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Atlas the Fisherman (talk • contribs) 23:30, 2008 July 24. Please sign your posts with ~~~~!

Fred Astaire?

I saw a bit of this movie with this actor named Fred Astaire, he bears an uncanny resemblance to Sander but less rough looking, especially in the small picture of him on the two way, just google it —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.206.187.219 (talk • contribs) 09:08, 2008 July 27. Please sign your posts with ~~~~!

Rise Rapture! Rise!

If anyone can find the lyrics to his oddball opera song, delete my words and post it here. It can be found on the loading screens, but my copy of the game got all scratched and I can't play it no more. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.209.26.210 (talk • contribs) 13:58, 2009 January 7. Please sign your posts with ~~~~!

Oh Rise, Rapture Rise!
We send our hopes into the skies!
Oh Rise, Rapture, Rise!
Upon your wings our dreams will fly.
A city in the ocean deep,
A promise that we'll always keep,
To boldly turn our eyes upon the priiiiiiize!
So Rise, Rise, Rise!
Oh Rise, Rapture Rise!
We merrily pinch every crime,
Oh Rise, Rapture Rise!
To help us crush parasites inside.
A city on Poseidon's door,
A set of ideas we adore.
A philosophy we all can emphasize
So Rise, Rise, Rise!

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.157.54.174 (talk • contribs) 06:01, 2009 June 26. Please sign your posts with ~~~~!

Sounds like it's the Rapture National Anthem. --Vae Infectus 18:00, December 10, 2009 (UTC)

Well, this version of the song is certainly amusing, but the real transcript can be seen at Rise, Rapture, Rise. ~Gardimuer

^{ ʈalk } 20:23, April 15, 2010 (UTC)

Laser pistol

See in one of the pics on the sander cohen page, there appears to be some kind of pistol that I've not seen in the game. Can anyone explain that? It looks like some kind of Bioshockesque pistol. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 194.176.201.24 (talk • contribs) 02:09, 2009 January 22. Please sign your posts with ~~~~!

- That's the normal pistol with the damage upgrade on the side. If you ignore the red cylinder and the tube, you'll see it's identical to the normal pistol. 74.67.65.6 03:21, August 28, 2010 (UTC).

Cut Content

Apparently one of the demos of the game before its release talked about retrieving a record for Cohen, seems like a big cut content. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.138.247.2 (talk • contribs) 18:03, 2009 February 26. Please sign your posts with ~~~~!

Out of Order

I killed Rodiguez before Cobb and put their pictures in that order. The only problem is:.... There Is No Quadtych When I try to Put Cobb's picture! I then tried using a hidden thing called: "Cohen's Masterpiece", but it doesn't work!!! Why??!!! I'm on the PC 173.32.11.67 01:31, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Survival?

Could it be possible that the crazed Sander Cohen lives? He seems to share DNA with Ryan considering his ability to use bathyspheres. Also consider the event triggered after attacking his masterpiece, as the event seems too believable to be considered a glitch, as well as the possibility to avoid Cohen's demise by choosing not to kill him period. Perhaps this is a hint showing he has indeed survived Jack's murderous rampage during his delightful stay in Rapture.--Atlas216 22:40, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

In my opinion, the "glitch" with the quadtych seems to be more of an easter egg for nostalgic gamers than any sort of canonical event. There are many plotholes in Rapture's history. Seeing that Ryan didn't come back to life even though there were other Vita-chambers scattered across Rapture could possibly prove that the developers intended Cohen to stay dead as well.24.81.79.129 22:09, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

I never though of this before, but since Cohen's death is completely up to the player, it's possible for Cohen to have survived the events of Bioshock. Hopefully, Bioshock 2 will have some kind of explanation of what happened to him Ant423 05:59, January 22, 2010 (UTC)Ant423

It is likely canonical that he died in his apartment by Jack, since it is presumed the "good" ending is the canon one, and keeping with that, the achievements could be seen as a means to show what did happen. Just my guess. Miumaru 00:33, April 18, 2010 (UTC)

Several interviews before the release of BioShock 2 mentioned that the developers intended either ending ("good" or "bad") to be canon. Why would the "good" ending mean Jack killed Cohen anyway? The choice to kill Cohen and the choice to save Little Sisters are unrelated. ~Gardimuer

^{ ʈalk } 19:51, April 18, 2010 (UTC)

Easter Egg/Designer Joke

I would be surprised it I am the only one who has seen this. In Eve's Garden, as Jack walks to the bedroom, the door is closed and Jasmine Jolene's ghost can be heard inside. Through the crack at the bottom of the door, an eerie shadow is cast in the red light. The thing that's funny about this is, that the shadow is made by two Sander Cohens using the ghost pole dancer animation. The animation plays twice, followed by the disappearance of the Cohens. I found this by disabling the clipping. Go see it, it's pretty funny! EDlTOR 06:31, December 7, 2009 (UTC)

Oh god I can't wait to see that! Just one more reason to look forward to winter break! After this has been confirmed we could put it in the article as trivia. ~Gardimuer _{ ʈalk } 11:26, December 7, 2009 (UTC)

Excellent, excellent XD I almost want to upload screenshots as proof... but maybe that isn't appropriate? ~Gardimuer _{ ʈalk } 05:23, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

ooohhh post it on youtube, if possable. that would be totaly lol-able!

~*~*~* Little sister7364 ~*~*~*~

Why would is be inappropriate? It is just Cohen, right? or am I misunderstanding what is being said? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.91.14.10 (talk • contribs) 18:58, 2010 July 4. Please remember to sign your posts with ~~~~.

I found it on youtube, enjoy =D : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EDsAtVeHpg&feature=related Pauolo 21:24, July 4, 2010 (UTC)

Unstable BEFORE he used ADAM?

Based on some of his audio diaries, he was probably emotionally unstable before he became a Houdini Splicer. The ADAM just made it worse. --Vae Infectus 19:02, December 13, 2009 (UTC)

Am I really the first to notice?

I searched the page and all... Does anyone else think his Radio Portrait looks almost exactly like Klee Irwin, pitchman for a colon cleansing infomercial? Could it possibly be intentional, for whatever reason? 75.79.56.69 23:07, January 10, 2010 (UTC)

Bioshock 2?

Does anyone think he will return in bioshock 2 because if so i wonder wht he wld look like? If so he would probably be very deformed and crazier!!! D: —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Aleksandr the Great (talk • contribs) 00:52, 2010 February 5. Please sign your posts with ~~~~!

Unfortunately he didn't, it is possible that Jack did kill him in Bioshock, then again if he did survive, his mental instability would probably be quite close to that of the Joker from the Batman comics, never mind the disfigurement. If he is still alive in 1968, then he will probably return in Bioshock 3.Vae Infectus 16:01, March 4, 2010 (UTC)

A quote from the April 2010 issue of GameInformer, under the heading TidBits: Fun facts about Bioshock 2 Written by 2K Games:

"At one point, Sander Cohen was planned to Reappear in Bioshcok 2 as a 20-foot-tall Freudian monster bunny."

I swear to god I am not making that up. --Ih8pkmn 23:21, March 13, 2010 (UTC)

I've gone through the ADAM harvesting in the Dionysus Park Cohen's Collection (both corpses) and after harvesting the 2nd corpse, I think I can hear him laughing after his masterpiece stops playing? A joke thrown in by the devs or is he still alive? Vae Infectus 03:11, March 30, 2010 (UTC)

The Brute Splicers sometimes reference Cohen. Interestingly, they refer to him in past tense, implying he's dead. Ant423 01:17, March 31, 2010 (UTC)Ant423

Either that or they haven't seen or heard from him in a while, so as far as they are concerned, he's as good as dead. Vae Infectus 17:35, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

I have never heard laughter after gathering in Cohen's Collection. I think the laughter you are referring to may just be a random background noise. All throughout Siren Alley I kept hearing laughter, but it didn't happen at any specific time, and it was just a sound to give atmosphere. If you did hear laughter after gathering I doubt it was part of a scripted event specifically for that gather sequence. ~Gardimuer

^{ ʈalk } 15:36, April 19, 2010 (UTC)

I gathered first in the room where the first Houdini Splicer was fought, then the room following that. In that sequence, the laughter was just at the beginning of the first harvest and at the end of the sending one. Vae Infectus 22:19, May 6, 2010 (UTC)

You were right, there is a laugh! I have been going through the sound files, and there are actually three version of the Scherzo in Dionysus Park: one with the laugh at the beginning, one with it at the end, and one with no laugh at all. I apologize for doubting you! ~Gardimuer

^{ ʈalk } 19:36, June 28, 2010 (UTC)

The Rapture version of the Joker?

I see some similarities between Sander Cohen and the Joker, both see themselves as entertainers and have a skewed perception of it. Vae Infectus 04:00, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

And both have creepy makeup.MarcoDelMarco 00:50, May 7, 2010 (UTC)

In most versions...it's NOT make up. In "The Dark Knight", yes it was. Although Sander Cohen was probably unstable BEFORE he took ADAM (an occupation hazard?). Vae Infectus 18:27, August 7, 2010 (UTC)

Burning the Quadtych

You don't have to set the quadtych on fire to incur Sander's wrath. Even hitting it with the wrench will cause him to appear. Ant423 23:54, April 3, 2010 (UTC)Ant423

Possiblilty

Is it possible that Sander Cohen painted the paintings depicting Jack's adventure in Bioshock 2? Because in Bioshock 1 after you kill Cohen's second apprentice he says something along the lines of "You're not a moth, you're an angel! Maybe I should paint you... I've never painted an angel before..." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 139.142.154.129 (talk • contribs) 20:31, 2010 May 3. Please sign your posts with ~~~~!

It possible, but unlikely. Due to the fact that the player has the option to kill Cohan in Bioshock, I doubt he will reappear in person in any other instalments after the events in Bioshock. This is due to how the player plays, being a choice-based game. Many choice related caractor will usually not appear in ways that will disrupt the canon on each differtant ending. Cohan has the same chance of appearing as Stanley Poole, Grace Halloway and Sofia Lamb; unlikey other than comments about them and old Audio Diaries.

El Ammo Bandito, "¿Sería tan amable?" 20:59, May 3, 2010 (UTC)

Well then who painted them? I doubt any Splicers were up to the task, and I didn't take Lamb (or Holloway, or Sinclair, or Poole) for an artist... (Oh yes and BTW, I was the one who put up the original question, I was on a school computer and it didn't accept my usual account)

And considering Cohen's death doesn't affect the endings in any way, I think there's more of a chance of him returning than people like Lamb. Phoenix saturn 22:30, May 3, 2010 (UTC)

Well there are many artists in Rapture, they are simply unnamed. Just because Cohan is the only named one doesn't make him the only one. As for reappearing, say you play the first game and you kill Cohan. If he suddenly appeared in the third, wouldn't that make your playthrough in the first game impossible?? He could still appear, however, though he'd need some kind of story, explaning how he came back if killed or if not killed, otherwise the choices in the first game would be screwy.

El Ammo Bandito, "¿Sería tan amable?" 22:51, May 3, 2010 (UTC)

Hi I'm new. So I have to disagree about making your choices in the first game becoming void because in Bioshock 2 when you get telekinesis you go into a room and see three splicers below you. They start talking about Jack and how he went to the surface with all the saved Little Sisters. This shows that either way Bioshock 2 was continued as if you were a good guy all through out the game. It wouldn't be drastic if developers decided to thrown Cohen back into the mix for another game. BTW have yo guys heard of a rumor of a Bioshock MMO? Google it! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ryan's Son (talk • contribs) 23:53, 2010 May 3. Please sign your posts with ~~~~!

I'm getting tired of saying the same thing over again. Yes, they mention Jack. But they have to differant storie, one says Jack adopts the Little Sisters, the other says he's in possion of a bomb. These represent both the god and bad endings of the game. So we're left without a definate answer of what Jack did afther leaving Rapture.

El Ammo Bandito, "¿Sería tan amable?" 02:55, May 4, 2010 (UTC)

Well, He does beat Jack back to his apartment witch means he can use the bathasphers, so maybe he can use the vita-chambers.MarcoDelMarco 13:55, May 6, 2010 (UTC)

They're encoded to Andrew Ryan's DNA, so only Jack can be revived by them, as for the Bathyspheres, Sander Cohen was still on good terms with Andrew Ryan during the events of Bioshock, so as one of Andrew Ryan's inner circle, he can use them to get around, as for getting to Mercury Suites faster, Jack was unconscious for an unknown amount of time, so he had enough time to get there first. Vae Infectus 18:38, August 7, 2010 (UTC)

The Vita-chambers are not encoded to ryan's DNA alone. As we see in bioshock 2, other people (I'm looking at YOU, Delta!) can be revived by the vita chambers. So it is entirely possible that Cohen is still alive. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.70.244.145 (talk • contribs) 17:44, 2011 June 14. Please remember to sign your posts with ~~~~.

skimmed and saw all the hooplah over whether Cohen's alive or not. Allow me to argue in favor of Cohen's return and here's a few reasons why. In a GameInformer article, there was a quote from the developers of Bioshock stating that they had intended Cohen's return (see the above mention of 20ft-tall-freudian monster bunny), but ultimately did not include him. Whether the player did or did not kill Cohen in their playthrough of Bioshock 1, the end decision and "official" storyline is up to the creators. Take, for example, Silent Hill 2. The true ending is subject to speculation...until Silent Hill 4 came out. No matter how nice the good ending seemed, tough nuts, the bad ending it is.

Not the best arguement, but you get the gist.68.185.190.138 15:35, June 12, 2010 (UTC)

There is also something that i've noticed in Dionysus Park during the harvest defence rounds in Cohen's Collection, at the begining of the first and at the end of the second, we hear a high pitched male laughing, was that Sander Cohen still alive after 10 years? Who knows? Hate to think what he looks like after 8 years of ADAM disfigurement or even more if he's in Bioshock 3! (if set after Bioshock 2) Then again, with single player DLCs... Vae Infectus 18:34, August 7, 2010 (UTC)

Health

The health figures listed do not seem right. On my first playthrough, I killed him in a single shot with the pistol. (While he was walking down the stairs in Fort Frolic). I know that headshots do extra damage, but even so, it is impossible to do 2500 damage in a single shot. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.61.79.37 (talk • contribs) 14:20, 2010 September 21. Please remember to sign your posts with ~~~~.

Died for his art?

I noticed that, if you look very close, most of the male "statues" arrayed about Fort Frolic have the Sander Cohen mustache and clothes, albeit covered in plaster. In a cannonical sense, could it be possible that Cohen, using a vita-chamber, would kill himself so he could use his own corpse for his art? The thought struck me when I looked at the startled body covered in plaster near Sander's recording of The Wild Bunny that he could have killed himself, but the question became in what capacity did he do so, if he had? The pose of surprise causes me to wonder if that Cohen (if indeed that is who the corpse had been) had been murdered by a clone or something to that effect. Tecnically that could be a scuicide but then would my supposition be correct? Just look closely at the male "statues" everywhere, even Cohen's masterpiece you have to help complete, and consider that, perhapse, Cohen had not just killed for his art, he had died for it. Again and again and again...24.13.32.142 20:13, January 11, 2011 (UTC)8th Penal Regiment24.13.32.142 20:13, January 11, 2011 (UTC)

That... would, along with the funny pole-dancing scene, easily explain why the old grape could defy death with the requiered glitch. But, specifically, that would only be possible via cloning. Dark Swarmlord 16:41, February 11, 2011 (UTC)

In a city without the restriction of "petty morality" on science, would that really be a problem? Honestly, from where I stand, I can't help think that the vita-chamber does exactly that, when an authorized user, such as Andrew Ryan (or those the system mistakes for him, such as Jack) or perhapse those chosen few of his favored, expires. I'd be willing to bet that, in a non-cannonical sense at least, it may just be that his model was the least altered of the splicer models in that area and so was best suited to becoming a "statue" but in a cannonical sense, I at least could see it as something Cohen might do, were cloning possible. Think of it this way, Cohen is a world-class artist (in his warped mind), and as such would only work with the best materials available. And no body (pun intended) is better than Sander Cohen. 8th Penal Regiment 16:36, March 11, 2011 (UTC)

Shadow trivia

Should we note in the trivia that even when Mr Cohen is not wearing his mask, his shadow still appears to be? (i.e It has the ears)

Even if it isn't deliberate it fits in nicely with "The Wild Bunny" and so COULD be deliberate.

Also if this isn't relevant, or is just an artifact or glitch in my game, feel free to ignore me.

Ramikin.

115.70.94.16 04:27, March 28, 2011 (UTC)

It sounds like it was overlooked by the developers, but I can't say for sure.

While we are on the subject of trivia, I'd like to point out that nothing is said about bombing Cohen with the Grenade Launcher's frags while he is locked in the booth. And in case you're wondering, no, he didn't even move.

Thought I'd stick it here scince it's about trivia. Dark Swarmlord 14:37, March 30, 2011 (UTC)

Sander's "love" being one-sided

Yes, it is confirmed that Cohen is a homosexual, but an "affair" between him and Andrew Ryan is absolute rumoring. Not once do we get any indication that Ryan returned the affection, if anything he just shows disdain for Cohen and from what we get in the story he was defitinely straight, the only reason he traveled to Fort Frolic being for the hookers. Sorry but just because Cohen's insane former disciples said something doesn't confirm nothing at all. At least for Ryan. (186.29.178.24 13:40, January 23, 2012 (UTC))

Silas Cobb's rant about Cohen & Ryan always seemed like a metaphor to me, not a statement of fact. He's derisively saying that Ryan and Cohen were corrupt, vainly flattering each other to gain greater influence and exchanging political favors (a similar idea to the song "When You're Good to Mama" in Chicago). As such, I agree with the anonymous contributor. ~Gardimuer

^{ ʈalk } 17:42, January 23, 2012 (UTC)

"Cohen went insane, driven so partly by Plasmids and out of frustration for the lack of appreciation for his work after the Civil War"

that should be 'during' as when we are there it (Civil War) is still in progress (and Im not sure the situation with pre-death Fontaine was counted as being during the Civil War...

Ryan does say something quite affectionate when you leave Fort Frolic, something like 'Oh, if you knew him before..'. In addition, i'm fairly sure that Cohen survived, as the Vita Chambers, like the Bathyspheres, were originally open to the public - at least according to the advertisements in the Medical Pavillion - and the Bathyspheres were only encoded to the 'Inner circle' and Ryan's relatives. I see no reason why Ryan wouldn't also encode the Vita Chambers to his 'inner circle', as he wouldn't want them dead unless he knew they were traitors. Cohen doesn't seem to have betrayed Ryan prior to the Civil War, and even if he had, he clearly 'has the keys' to Fort Frolic, as Atlas says, and Vita-Chambers can be manually re-coded as Eleanor does in Bioshock 2. 86.148.179.236 15:28, April 12, 2013 (UTC)

Smile, Smile!

I was reading about old TV shows, and came across one called Alfred Hichcock Presents. Eventualy, I read of a lost episode about a magician's assistant named Hugo who falls in love with the magician's wife. Long story short, the episode ends with Hugo cutting the wife in half, telling her to "Smile! Smile!" I think this might be an inspiration for Cohen's quote during his little outburst. Or I could just be drawing connections where there are none again... Either way, this could be something of note.

GothLoliManda (talk) 23:26, October 20, 2013 (UTC)

Moral Choice ? You are forced to be an assassin for Sander Cohen

At the end you saved Little Sisters or you didnt, and you get rewarded almost equally along the way (no cost of being 'moral'...).

With Sander Cohen, whom you HAVE to become an assassin for to progress in the game, there is no choice offered in that situation.

For all the talk about this 'moral choice' there supposedly was, it in reality rings pretty hollow.

Testxyz (talk) 08:07, November 2, 2013 (UTC)

Come on, it's no different from the first Thuggish Splicer you kill in the Bathysphere Station. You kill or be killed. The reason why it's a morality choice with the Little Sisters is because they're weak and helpless innocents and you can either exploit them to help save your life or make the choice of sparing them and and taking the harder route.

Cohen's men are powerful Splicers and it's implied that some of them (Martin Finnegan and Hector Rodriguez) have killed so they're dangerous. It's hardly a fair comparison to the Sisters.

Yes it would be better if Tenenbaum's rewards weren't so generous, but it is still a harder journey (especially starting out).

Unownshipper (talk) 05:02, November 3, 2013 (UTC)

You actively set out to hunt down and kill the 3 people Cohen wants 'for his masterpiece'. Its not as incidental as exiting the one path from the initial Bathysphere station and the Splicer guy goes straight at you (after throwing some flaming furniture at you). The funny thing is the biggest monster of all - Cohen - is the one they give a choice of killing or not.

I think they (the game company) wimped out and had to make the 'saving' Little Sister pay (someone added it up and it turns out you actually get more for doing it??) OR a clear majority of the players would simply take the (higher) payoff - kill the child with little thought - and the game company would look REALLY bad for encouraging that kind of thing.

Seriously, if you got NOTHING for saving every Little Sister (versus tasty green ability-earning empowering goo for every one), how many players do you think would take that path in this game ?? To many players, you slaughter things wholesale in the rest of the game, so whats the dif killing a few 'little ghouls' ??

Testxyz (talk) 08:14, November 3, 2013 (UTC)

BAS Cohen jumping the gun? :

BAS - I understand why they would use Cohen again (very popular char from first game ...)

But having him at the time of the Kashmir Incident murdering people publicly (before order fell apart ALOT more by the time Jack shows up) is just too limited-skill fiction. Dumping his rejected art models into a vat of purple pudding (alive) would be more 'artsy' and then heaping witty ridicule upon them ("Get out of my sssight YOU uninssspiring dregssss ! ! ! ") would have been more imaginative/proper for the context.

Why would Cohen know where Sally is ?? (heh, 'twist' would be Sally is one of Cohens 'plaster-pieces' by the time they find her...) Why arent Booker and Elizabeth horrified by the outright murder of two people, or even of Kidnapping of children??? (Rapture hasnt gone-to-hell quite yet... All that talk of things being 'back to normal'...) Was this whole DLC plot all just the first ideas they came up with, scratched on the back of a Denny's napkin?

People dont like being murdered and the City Constables would be round to lock ole 'insano' up right quick. Possibly this is yet more evidence of this not being 'your fathers Rapture' and some bizarro alternate inhabitted by a Booker and Elizabeth which flipped a different quark somewhere down the infinite line ???

Testxyz (talk) 08:33, November 14, 2013 (UTC)

Are we SURE the dancers at Cohen's were murdered? Certainly they were electrocuted, but so were Booker and Elizabeth & they turned out OK. Maybe they were just knocked out.

Unownshipper (talk) 07:55, November 17, 2013 (UTC)

They also were hanging from those cords/ropes, but yes it is possible it was done for effect by Cohen (certainly outrageous enough --- as 'performance art' and missing a commentary on the low quality of dancing accepted 'these days'.) Some hint, while the two other dancers are being pulled upto the ceiling like puppets with confetti and sparklers popping out of them and striking dramatic pose in the background as Booker/Elizabeth are wilting from their 'shock' , might have been clever.

Testxyz (talk) 08:01, November 17, 2013 (UTC)

*Facepalm* No, they did not came up with the ideas from the back of a Denny's napkin, you simply didn't pay attention to the plot. Cohen knows where Sally is because he took stewardship of the orphans after Fontaine's business fell apart in order to sell them, and the ones he couldn't (like Sally) he sent them to Fontaine's Department Store. Pretty simple huh?

And news flash, this is taking place right before the fall of Rapture, not in it's early days or something, and the city was already falling apart with it's corruption and madness, and Sander and his posse were some of the first ones to be affected. And Cohen was already depraved and insane before Rapture collapsed, just like Steinman was already butchering patients in his domain.

And how do we know he killed the dancers? Seeing how it only knocked Booker and Elizabeth unconscious, he might as well could have done the same thing to those two. (Relativus (talk) 15:45, November 17, 2013 (UTC))

Un-face palm.

My comment is largely about Cohen PUBLICLY murdering people (or appearing to as the other person's comment questioned) which is far beyond the things the game mentioned before -- perversions/insanity which he did in private/the shaddows. As I said it would be no problem after such evidence in BAS for the Constables to put an end to Cohen for something so blatantly criminal and repugnant to the majority of Raptures citizens -- who still largely were living in a climate of normalcy.

"Cohen was already depraved and insane before Rapture collapsed" - your words.

WHY then would the City Council place children in HIS hands ??

Also remember the children in the orphanages were there really being used by Fontaine as ADAM producers - its not clear the transition when Fontaines holdings were 'nationalized' - but it is likley Ryan's proxies continued its operations (since there was no reversing it and ADAM was in high demand - not even to make profit, but to keep an addicted population from coming apart). SO who would be these people Cohen would be selling them to, taking them away from where they already were "in-use" ?? And for what reason?? Pedophiles? We saw some LS with what looked like a victorian age schoolmarm in the street in BAS. That looked like that orphanage system was still in effect (and not shut down and the 'orphans' tossed onto the street as some may have thought Ryan would order).

Rapture was coming apart ? Market and High Street didnt look like that to me. Remember the New Years Eve party was supposed to show that things were/had gotten back to relative normality after the shocking events at Neptunes Bounty. (Thats why the Party attack was such a shock and touted as being so demoralizing).

Upto this point, things had been 'handled'. The methods people were used to (use mind-think of a 1940s American instead of todays PC stuff). Suddenly a massive attack on bigwigs (and rioting elsewhere was hinted at I think) breaks the confidence that ANYONE will be safe from these mudereous monsters. That leads to the citizens panicking and the economy falling apart (as per BS1/BS2 history).

All of this adds upto my comment about "Jumping the Gun" and making Rapture FAR more 'gone' than the previous games talk about at the timeframe point of BAS. They wanted to showcase Rapture "BEFORE", but then had to offer the shootem-up gunplay part of the game (and Cohen more like what he was a year later). I found the way they did that pretty weak (thus quickee ideas written on a 'napkin' simply being implemented).

We at least have the excuse that this isnt the original (BS1/BS2) Rapture, so NOTHING seen in that content has to be true anymore (but then other 'talk' here is about Levine saying it IS all the SAME both Booker/Elizabeth and Rapture...)

Thus 'talk' to discuss it.

Testxyz (talk) 07:52, November 18, 2013 (UTC)

Another puzzle is why if the 'orphanages' are still in operation should there be a need to kidnap them (Sally, etc..). There possibly were others running their own ADAM-farms (we've seen bootleggers operations, in BS2), but they always in-game seem to imply that Ryan is doing all this 'kidnapping'. Atlas would be a likely perp, to supply his minions. Testxyz (talk) 09:11, November 18, 2013 (UTC)

Actually Booker talking about murderous Splicers as if they were common as drunks makes it different from the original story plots where McDonagh makes comments about Splicers he saw ("demons out of the Bible they were "[[2]]) as like they were something not seen before (instead of being common knowledge like Booker says) and the dialogue somewhere about the Constables having to uprate their weapons to face this new thing... IF there was such an obvious (to citizens) link between ADAM and common occurances of violent dangerous insane people, it would have given Ryan more than enough excuse/mandate to shut Fontaine's or even the whole ADAM industry down as a public hazard (like people selling poisoned/infected food). Freedom stops when it leads to murdering other citizens.

They were also pushing things (for the game flashy Booker used stuff) by having Combat Plasmids being sold blatantly in Fontaines Department store. That would have dated from before Fontaine was 'killed'. Why would Fontaine want to hand away a major weapon (powerful Plasmids) to Ryan or anybody else at that point of time (or even after). You look at the advertisements in BS1/BS2/DLC representing Pre-Civil War Rapture and the plasmids are for either convenient consumer tasks or citizen defensive measures.

Testxyz (talk) 08:12, November 20, 2013 (UTC)

-- As far as Cohen publicly "killing" two subjects on a platform amongst other citizens, it's not so far above crazy for such a thing to happen in Rapture, let alone with Cohen always an eccentric artist as he is even before splicing, comparable to real life artist Salvador Dali, who received much criticism for his methods and inspiration, and also, Cohen was part of the elite of Rapture and on Ryan's "good side", so it is very possible any authority figures dismissed Cohen's actions and some may even applaud it, claiming it to be artistic brilliance on his muse.

The reason why Bill McDonagh was so surprised during the Fontaine raid was because he was part of the upper class, but you seem to neglect where most of the violence and splicing occurred, the lower classes such as Apollo Square, Fontaine's Poorhouses and those locations. Booker may have gotten used to the site due to his role as a private investigator, it's normal for investigators to receive seedy cases. So although Little Wonders may have been active inside the hustling busy high and middle class sections of the city, the lower class Little Wonders must have been in shambles or out of use given Ryan had no care in those sections of his city, so Cohen could have very well scrambled up any remaining Little Sisters from there and safe held them for profit. He could have even, despite his ranking among the high class, had this little side business a secret from Ryan. Nonetheless, headlines (not only from BAS but BS1+2) mention death tolls rising, but not in the mass, but headlines such as "five dead in recent skirmish" so citizens of any class would have known what was happening about and around but just simply tried to turn a blind eye, continue on with their business.

Why do you speak of combat plasmids? As you said yourself, they were just convenience plasmids that acted as "super powers" that were meant for everyday usage (Incinerate to light stoves or electro bolt to provide electricity, etc). If you mean the Vigors to Plasmids selection specifically, the little show tunes they are accompanied further the point that they were meant as convenience plasmids, not combat. Even in Burial at Sea, plasmids were used as a skillset for certain jobs. In Bioshock 1, there is a mural in the Welcome Center depicting the original reason for the plasmids but the people themselves misused or had malicious purposes and giving the psyche of splicers, it was just an inevitable thing to happen.

If it actually was 'killing' that would not have be normal in pre civil war Rapture. Afterwards as order degraded with Splicers killing people on the streets and sections of the city becoming isolated, like Fort Frolic, Cohen could do what he wanted. If it was just an 'act' then there is no problem unless those who were involved decided they had been assaulted without their permission.

We saw splicing right there in the BaS Lounge IN the upper class area, and to abuse ADAM you had to be able to afford it and was likely just as prevelant in the upper classes, if not moreso. Bill McDonagh also was Raptures chief repairman and went everywhere in Rapture. With Little Sisters being the main source of ADAM and with Ryan now in control of that industry, he very much would be interested in every Little Sister to meet not just new products but also the growing addiction. At some point the need is so great that he commisssions McClendon to try to create a Little Sister substitutes.

Combat Plasmids are far greater in power than the 'fad' plasmids (and had to be developed as such) and the various useful ones likewise. Throwing a fireball is quite a bit more than a small flame at the end of a finger. The combat plasmids Fontaines/Atlas's splicers had were a surprise to Ryans security so much that he had to bring in the Chemical thrower weaponry to have something on par with them for his non-spliced constables at the Neptunes Bounty shootout, or at least after what was seen at the Kashmir Incident. By the time WE got our various Plasmids in BS1 it was a whole year later and Ryan had been improving the Plasmids to use against what Atlas's forces had. The plasmid advertisements look to be selling the ADAM prodcuts as self-defense, something the storyline says "people were lined up around the block for" AFTER the Kashmir Incident which hasnt happened yet in BaS1 and is right on the edge of happening in BaS2.

Who payed Cohen to bring Sally down to the prison.

A bit of back and forth here regarding the statement that someone paid Cohen to bring Sally down to the department. Even though Booker believes Cohen sent Sally down because it was deemed high art, Cohen did in fact state "I merely provide a service for those who have the means to pay" after Elizabeth asks why he would send Sally down there in the first place.

Given what we are presented, we know that the first time we see Atlas in person, he asks his men to retrieve Sally and to kill off Elizabeth. This would mean that Atlas had been searching for the girl for a while as she is the only Little Sister and Atlas showed a keen interest when Elizabeth told him that there were a lot more Little Sisters in Rapture.

Also, the only sane group of people we've met in game are Atlas and his followers and we also know that he kept in communcations with his followers up in Rapture through morse code (telegraph devices), so it is possible that he had his people pay Cohen and bring down a Little Sister, who happened to be Sally, to help control the spliced population in the department store since they were becoming restless. (December 23rd was when Cohen recorded an audio diary found in the Habedashery, nearly a month after the store sunk and 8 days before the events of BaS). The only individual who had the means to communicate, purchase and enact this deed would have to be Atlas. Tricksteroffools (talk) 02:26, November 27, 2014 (UTC)

Don't forget that when Booker and Elizabeth are travelling to the Dept. Store, Booker still believes that Sally is just a little girl. He doesn't suspect she's a Little Sister (though Elizabeth probably already knows). At worst, Booker thinks Sally is in the clutches of some pederast. This isn't helped by Cohen phrasing the situation as "a service for those who have the means to pay." When he mentioned the "high art" suggestion, Booker's assuming she's still an innocent girl in a dark and evil place, so it's "dramatic contrast."

The fact that he wants his men to retrieve Sally is meaningless. To him, it doesn't who she is; she's a Little Sister, a source of precious and powerful ADAM. It doesn't matter if she's a specific LS or not.

Your theory that Atlas contacted Cohen and paid for Sally to be sent down is sound, but it's not the only possibility. Yi Suchong could've paid Cohen for Sally, turned her into a sister, and sent her to the Dept Store where the Big Daddy was in a bonding experiment. Because it's just as possible that Suchong sent her to the store, it's not a good idea to so strongly suggest that Atlas or his followers were the ones who ordered Sally be sent to Fontaine's.

Unownshipper (talk) 07:15, November 27, 2014 (UTC)

If Suchong had sent Sally to the Store, I think he would have VERY quickly told Comstock after he was kidnapped. (Providing Comstock actually got his hands on Suchong.) Also if Suchong had sent Sally down to the store, why does Cohen know exactly where she is? Pauolo put together a VERY interesting theory by looking at the dates on some of the Audio Diary. Basically Cohen DID deliver Sally to the store on Dec 25th 1958 (we find an Audio Diary from him with that date on it. (Critics)) Atlas who has his HQ at the Manta Ray Lounge gets overrun by splicers on the SAME DAY (C'est La Vie). Not a lot could get a bunch of splicers to go on attack like that. But if they heard there was a Little Sister around, they would rush to get her for the ADAM. sm --Solarmech (talk) 13:39, November 27, 2014 (UTC)

Dont forget that an audio diary from Cohen in Fontaine's suggested he was there after it was sunk, likely to deliver Sally. If it was Suchong that had paid for Sally then he could have delivered her himself or had Ryan's Security do it. But Cohen would have to deliver the girl himself to Atlas so Ryan would not find out. (Night at the Kashmir (talk) 16:17, November 27, 2014 (UTC))

Coming Down Hard on Cohen

There's a line in this article that I find troubling:

"It might be assumed that Cohen's talent as an artist was looked on by some as dubious at best, given his frequent run-ins with the "doubters" and Lee Wilson Seward's commentary that he was a "fraud"."

It's not that I think this should be rewritten or anything. On the contrary according to the narrative presented from BioShock to Burial at Sea - Episode 2 this statement is accurate. It just irks me because, to the audience, it's not actually valid.

Listen to Cohen's Scherzo, look at all of the paintings in The Gallery of the Artist's Struggle or Cohen's Collection in Fort Frolic and Dionysus Park (BioShock 2 Multiplayer). Yes, these works and others were made by actual artists and are only attirbuted to Cohen, but the fact remains that these are wonderful pieces. I'm not wild about The Black Dream (it seems to be nothing more than a satire of Art House cinema), but The March Hare and Regardèrent et Furent Observés are actually rather clever or at the very least thought-provoking.

Despite all of this, we have nothing but criticisms agaisnt him. People calling his work lousy, people calling him a fraud. Anna Culpepper criticizes Cohen's actions as a propaganda mill (which is perfectly fine), but from BioShock 2 on we have nothing but (I hate to say it) "doubters" when we can clearly see his talent is genuine. The stuff by Lee Wilson Seward and the Audio Diary Critics are the worst of them all (way to go BAS). Ask yoursef, if Cohen had ALWAYS been regarded as a hack, how could he have reached such an elevated position in Rapture?

The only valid criticism against him and/or his talent should be critiques against Rise, Rapture, Rise. Take away the fact that it's propaganda (propagandistic works can still be artistically beautiful) and what you have is a set of somewhat clunky or unsophisticated lyrics hidden behind the voice of a talented singer and an uplifing melody.

I wish we'd been given evidence of the public praising his work (an unbiased Audio Dairy or something) or actual examples of artistic failures because all this seems to do is make his critics look like assholes. You know what'd have been clever? What if Cohen's works had been met with 90% approval, and he only had a small number of nay-sayers (AKA what the original BioShock implied). Depsite all the praise he received, the paranoid Cohen would never be able look past the rejections. Unfortunately, his paranoia seems justified as everyone's out to get him.

Unownshipper (talk) 03:47, January 7, 2015 (UTC)

Now that you mention it, there is not a single character that actually likes him, besides Ryan, the Brutes and the Artist's Struggle's shop keeper. This could be because he was a man of power, maybe people where afraid of him? One thing I noted in Cohen's was that no one of the bystanders reacted to what was happening: four people being electrified, two maybe dead!? Are people that used to seeing such events that they don't react in anyway? This is also evident in Silas Cobb's audio diary: Come to the Record Store where he reviles that he was just two faced. People knew that if Cohen noted them, then they would become someone.

But that doesn't explain why he was a "bad artist"? and it did not stop people...

His paintings are great! So could it be his plays? We know almost nothing about Bedtime Surprise or Patrick and Moira and probably never will, so could this be what everyone is criticizing him about? Could they be bad? or maybe just to much for the public eye?

Shacob (talk) 16:59, January 12, 2015 (UTC)

I think it's less his particular works and more a sort of "ripple effect" that's happened across the series as new and different people leave their mark on the game.

In BioShock, Sander Cohen has one major critic: Anna Culpepper. Everything else we're given suggests he's held in the highest regard: the PA advert for Why Even Ask? describing him as "Rapture's most beloved musical artist," the fact he owns Fort Frolic, even Atlas reveals people think of him as a genuine artist, etc.

But focusing on Culpepper, reread Ryan's Stableboy and one will note that while she criticizes him for his actions she actually compliments Cohen's talents: "Cohen tidies with a catchy melody and a clever turn of phrase. But no matter how nicely it sounds, he can't really do anything about the smell…"

Then go to the Challenge Rooms, and we have a much more vitriolic quote from her: "Sander Cohen is a two parts suck-up and ten parts hack. And that's being charitable" That's quite the difference of description, but it's still understandable b/c she has no patience for propaganda.

So… cut to each sequel which is overseen by different people. Not only do they try not to directly contradict visible factors (AKA, no one's going to suddenly reveal that Fontaine has a sentimental side or the Ryan would hold charity brunches) they also go to lengths to retread upon established factors to pay homage to the critically acclaimed first game. So instead of one detractor, suddenly in BioShock 2 Cohen has a bunch of differnt critics in Rapture and then in the There's Something in the Sea campaign and Burial at Sea Cohen has ALWAYS had people calling his work lousy. All the while, never taking any effort to show his supporters or his praisers despite the fact they SHOULD be present.

I've said it before with the Kashmir Restaurant. In BioShock it was just a really nice restaurant hosting a New Year's party but its importance kept getting exaggerated with every sequel to the point where it became the place to be, total party central. That lead to a number of people complaining that it just wasn't grand enough in it's original iterration to justify the hype and the wondering if the Kashmir Restaurant (BioShock 2 Multiplayer) was a canon extension.

With every game a thicker shade of paint is drawn on an original idea to the point where it get's blown wildly out of proportion. I wish more conscious effort had been taken to maintain a happy medium true to the original.

Unownshipper (talk) 09:48, January 13, 2015 (UTC)

Sander's Successor

After completing Cohen's Quadtych, if you let him live, he allows you to "avail yourself upon one of his lesser works" (the Medical Expert 2 Tonic). He goes on to say, "If you had become my one and true disciple, you might have been worthy of seeing inside the box of my most private muse, but who knows if that man is yet even born." I can only assume the "box" he refers to is the music box, the prize you receive for killing him.

It would seem his intent was for you to kill him and take his photo (Irony Achievement), thereby succeeding him and completing his macabre work. If you let him live, he's honestly disappointed.

--132.3.57.81 19:06, October 27, 2015 (UTC)

If you kill Sander in Fort Frolic you can't get top the Power to the People in his place up in Olympus Heights. And frankly what's in the Music Box isn't all that special. Weapons upgrade and the stuff in his apartment is a lot better. Also I don't think Sander was suicidal. He wanted to stick around to see Ryan by the big one. sm --Solarmech (talk) 21:30, October 27, 2015 (UTC)

Corpses and Eye Color

Is it an assumption that it is censorship you couldn't make that *particular* girl's corpse bleed or is it stated somewhere? The three dead girls up in Apollo Square cannot be hit. Stuff goes through them. The one in Fort Frolic *can* be hit and sounds the same as the table when you hit it. Also if you look at the FF "girl" you will she is NOT covered in plaster as the other figures are. Rather it is a Little Sister model skinned white, nothing more. She has full detail on clothes and her face, totally unlike plaster covered figures. Everything taken together says it's a statue, NOT a body covered in plaster. As for Cohen's eye color change, plasmids are known to be able to change eye color. Either accidentally or intentionally. This is shown by splicers having Heterochromia iridum. Check the Splicer page. And it is stated by Steinman you can a lot more than change eye color. I would also point out that Cohen was a friend of Steinman. While technically it's speculation, it also based on solid logic based on information in the game and I did not state it as fact (and it's in the Behind the Scenes area, not in the main article.) Irrational spent a lot of time on Cohen for BaS Ep 2, why would they screw up something so simple? sm --Solarmech (talk) 16:35, January 30, 2016 (UTC)

Bette or Joan

An interesting occurrence has developed: User:73.8.29.13 has correctly pointed out that it was Bette Davis who wore exaggerated makeup in Whatever Happened to Baby Jane? (1962) while her costar Joan Crawford looked normal. However, Mainframe98 has also correctly pointed out that Robb Waters' interview source in which he explains his concept decision for Sander Cohen claims something different:

"...I thought about adding the pancake and crazy make-up. My source of inspiration for this was taken from the movie “Whatever Happened to Baby Jane.” I saw this movie when I was pretty young and remember being so unnerved at the scene where Joan Crawford is applying make-up in such a crazed and desperate way. In a nutshell, it scared the crap out of me and that imagery always stuck with me."

Is Mr. Waters conflating this movie with Mommie Dearest (1981), a film in which Faye Dunaway portrays Joan Crawford? Or is it possible that he simply made a mistake and identified Crawford as the character having the mental breakdown in Jane instead of Bette Davis (he was, after all, recalling a movie he hadn't seen in years).

More to the point, should we correct the source or leave it perfectly as is?

Unownshipper (talk) 14:16, September 28, 2016 (UTC)

When in doubt, quote, don't paraphrase. If Waters made a factual error, it is his alone. The only people who can judge the claim accurately are the ones who have recently seen the films. If it is egregiously out of line with the facts, an indented/double bullet point explanation will ameliorate the situation.

In any case, half of these BtS bullet points are without direct sources, which is another problem. UpgradeTech (talk) 16:26, September 28, 2016 (UTC)

Olympus Heights/Fort Frolic glitch now canon?

I'm playing through the remastered "The Collection" version on PS4. I killed Sander at his apartment and then returned to Fort Frolic to open the muse box as well as to see if the celebrated glitch where you get to kill him again is still active. Not only is it still active, but when Sander reappears he is actually wearing a different costume, including the rabbit mask. They could have fixed the glitch but instead they went through the trouble of recostuming Sander. At first I thought this was supposed to be somebody else but he's still identified as Sander by the game. So does this mean that Sander now, canonically, somehow fakes his death if you "kill" him in Olympus Heights? Given the nature of the character, it's actually consistent, but it might mean his biography might need a bit of updating. I added a condensed version of this the glitch section. 23skidoo (talk) 14:29, November 30, 2017 (UTC)

The glitch is not canon. The Collection does not seem to have fixed any glitches that are known to be in the game in the original version (or very few of them.) They didn't even fix glitches that were known to have been already patched in some cases. So Sander still being alive despite the new costum (probably another glitch) being killed is not canon. sm --Solarmech (talk) 16:24, November 30, 2017 (UTC)

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