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DeWitt's face Edit

Theres a screenshot of an old man on a newspaper cart. If u look closely at one of the news papers it says "Anarchists loose in our fair city!!" screenshot There are two pictures of two men, one of them could be Dewitt and the new "Atlas"? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.51.58.1 (talkcontribs) 15:54, 22 September 2010 (EST). Please remember to sign your posts with ~~~~.

Old screenshot, but meh. It's already been said the city is at war and such. Those could be anyone. ~ɠą§ɔîéɳčę { talk } 21:12, September 22, 2010 (UTC)
In the debut trailer, when DeWitt crashes out the window, look on the pieces of the glass towards the top right and you can see his face, only a sliver though but you can see it. --Gearslover01 21:26, September 22, 2010 (UTC)
Considering the person in the trailer fell face-first out of the sky and most likely made a thin pancake 100s of miles below, I doubt it was DeWitt. ~Gardimuer 15px-Physical_Tonic.png ʈalk } 04:55, September 23, 2010 (UTC)
Nah, he probably just exploded into a series of organs used in the movie Virus... The underlying idea of that movie seems oddly appealing to me... ~ɠą§ɔîéɳčę { talk } 05:10, September 23, 2010 (UTC)
Your both wrong. He landed in a pile of hey on impact and was saved form further damage, then he found another way to the city.69.117.71.119 21:23, March 21, 2011 (UTC)
Well, we have to know that its just a teaser, and that trailer isnt relevant to the story, so, i think ts Booker.
^^^ very clever!^^^
─D.Ryan─ 04:33, December 15, 2011 (UTC)
I'd like to point out that booker also appears in bioshock 2 as you pick up one of his voice recordings and he says the same as he does at the beginning of the gameplay footage "that thing took elizabeth i must find her" to begin with i thought he might have ended up in rapture hence him falling from columbia but i wonder how his voice recording diary got to rapture????
-connor councell-
Are you sure you're not mixing Booker up with Mark Meltzer? BioShock 2 was almost done a long time before BioShock Infinite even started. In any case, could you indicate which Audio Diary you thought belonged to Booker? --Willbachbakal 16:34, February 11, 2012 (UTC)
Sorry Connor, but Willbachbakal's correct. That audio diary most likely belongs to Mark Meltzer. The voice recording relates to Mark finding his daughter named Cindy (NOT Elizabeth) because she was kidnapped by the Big Sister. Anyway, I looked through Mark's page and tried to find a match to the quote Connor is referring to, and it seems "Child" and Guardian is the closest match. Though the recording doesn't exactly match what he said.
"CarsAndGuitars." 01:55, October 27, 2012 (UTC)
Hopefully we do get to see his face in-game. Maybe through a reflection of the mirror, the puddle, or glass (kind of like Portal 2 where you can see Chell's face by shooting the portal gun at a wall, and standing directly between the portal). It'll be a nice little detail.
~ Cars And Guitars (talk) 03:49, October 29, 2012 (UTC)

Trivial part removed from article Edit

This seemed speculative from the game, but just in case anything from the game makes that relevant, as in something having to do with eugenics when Booker arrives (since The Founders seems to have some ideology like that), I put this info here:

  • It can be considered,that booker has dutch roots. Because of his surname DeWitt, which is the americanized version of the typical dutch surname de Wit (which means "the white" in Dutch).
  • also, Booker refers somewhere in the game to a person as the queen of Holland

--Evans0305 (talk) 00:07, October 22, 2012 (UTC)

Booker DeWitt's NameEdit

It seems unlikely that we'll get a confirmation on the origin or meaning behind Booker's name from the game creators, so (since it is all speculation) let's put all of the suggestions here:


In addition to the stuff listed above ↑, the following comes from the article The Little White Injun that could (http://bioshockmysteries.com/2013/04/08/the-little-white-injun-that-could/), provided by User:EkriikE:


Real life connections for the name Booker DeWitt

  • The Scribe - Booker as a first name originates in Old English as an occupational name. One of these occupations is that of a scribe. This could refer to Booker’s “rewriting” of his memories after the Luteces lead him to Columbia. [link]
  • The Gambler - Booker is close to Bookie referencing his problem with paying off gambling debts.
  • The Civil Rights Leader - Booker T. Washington was born a slave, gained his freedom at the end of the Civil War and went on to be a very important and influential person on the road towards equality for african americans. He represents everything that Comstock’s ideology rallies against. [link]
  • The White One - DeWitt is a Flemish name that means “white”. If you are going to eventually end up being the ultimate white supremacist, DeWitt is a good name to be born with. [link]
  • The Physicist - Bryce DeWitt was a theoretical physicist that advanced the many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics. [link]
  • The Blank Slate - "Booker" is the term given to one who makes and binds books. "DeWitt" means "of white". So, as a whole, his name basically means "a blank book".


Any or all of these could be the likely inspiration regarding his name, so it's utterly pointless to suggest one is more likely thanthe others on the main page.


Unownshipper (talk) 22:11, August 9, 2013 (UTC)


More name trivia removed from the main page:
  • Booker's surname, DeWitt, is based on a Dutch phrase meaning "The White." The Dutch were the original settlers of New York City, hinting at part of his ancestry as a native New Yorker.
    • In contrast, his given name could be a reference to Booker T. Washington, the founder of Alabama's Tuskegee Institute and a prominent supporter of African-American equality, putting his character in a state of conflict in an era of institutionalized racism.


Unownshipper (talk) 11:03, January 16, 2015 (UTC)

A.D. on Booker's handEdit

Comstock warns of a "False Shepard" bearing this tattoo. The tattoo was self inflicted; A.D. stands for Anna DeWitt(also Elizabeth), his child.

Booker Doesn't Row Edit

"He doesn't row? He doesn't row."

This is a phrase said by the Lutece's at the beginning of the game, and is just one of the offbeat things that the two say.

  • "He doesn't row?" "No, he DOESN'T row." I interpret that as meaning not that Booker doesn't want to or can't row, but that it simply doesn't happen--that event is a fixed moment, and in no possible realities does DeWitt help row the boat. Quantum stuff. 69.85.234.252 18:47, April 2, 2013 (UTC).213.10.186.145 20:22, June 17, 2013 (UTC) I however interpret it as "No, he DOESN'T row.  row sounding an awful lot like know, the scene could be interperted as the two talking about how Booker doesn't know what is going to happen.

Possible Booker and Elizabeth relationship? Edit

In the new City In The Sky trailer when Booker is fighting the Handyman he yells out "I'M NOT LETTING YOU TAKE HER YOU HEAR ME?". Could this mean that through out the game Booker will gain some sort of Romantic bond with Elizabeth?AmberWing65 (talk) 15:53, February 1, 2013 (UTC)

I have kinda the same feeling, that from a simple job "Find her, bring her back." it will become something more. Release date is really near, so we can just wait. But I feel like Elizabeth will be someone more to Booker than just a person to rescue. I remember that in one of the reviews, someone (I don't really remember who) said that all your actions will be watched by Liz, that means that you can either be a role model for her, or a cold hearted killing machine. I wonder if that would affect her relations with you... Hmm.. Ison (talk) 15:59, February 1, 2013 (UTC)
It seems like that when they first met, Elizabeth was about to put her hand on Booker's face and i think that almost turned right into a kiss...maybe.AmberWing65 (talk) 20:02, February 9, 2013 (UTC)
I don't think so. She said: "Are you real?" That could mean, that she didn't see any people (like face to face) during her life on the M. Island, only thing that she saw was the Songbird sooo I really doubt that she would kiss him right after he fell from her celling... Ison (talk) 20:12, February 9, 2013 (UTC)
With someone stuck in a tower for 15 years, never met anyone face-to-face, can possibly try something with someone (not sexually).AmberWing65 (talk) 23:59, February 10, 2013 (UTC)


I believe the relationship between Elizabeth and Booker will vary upon the choices you make as they appear during the game, like that scene where you can decide to stop an execution or just pass by, and so their relationship will change with each kind act, or in the contrary with cruel ones. In that way Elizabeth is very similar to Eleanor, they both grew up captives and only discovered the world through books, and so they know nothing about other people's behavior. I won't say for sure this can become a romantic relationship at the end of the story, but I will say the ultimate choice, if it is left to Booker or determined by all your choices, will be to decide whether to respect his contract, or run away with her.
Pauolo (talk) 00:14, February 11, 2013 (UTC)
I think that your choices effect your relationship with her too, cause when Booker was about to kill the horse and Elizabeth stopped him very quick, i wonder if he killed the horse she might say something like "You're a murderer" or "You're Heartles.AmberWing65 (talk) 13:38, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

Romantic relationship would be called Incest, you sick bastard. Lol 98.210.113.156 17:07, April 5, 2013 (UTC)

OP made this post before the game came out...How would they know, it's just pre-release speculation.107.196.168.71 01:26, April 6, 2013 (UTC)


"choices you make as they appear during the game, like that scene where you can decide to stop an execution or just pass by, and so their relationship will change with each kind act, or in the contrary with cruel ones." "I think that your choices effect.."

I really feel like BioShock Infinite was a rip-off. Straight-up false advertising.Einsteinium99 (talk) 17:55, September 2, 2013 (UTC)


The execution scene sounds like the version in the early demo before the game was revised. Either that relationship aspect of the story didn't work out by the current revision, or speculation for it rose because everyone wanted a "Harvest/Save" equivalent in the game. BioShock 1 didn't deliver everything ( remember the Teleporting Plasmid in the early Medical Pavilion demo video?), but that game was okay for what it was. Even 2K Marin's work on BioShock 2 was changed because of what they decided would work for the game ( Eleanore as the Big Sister, Delta sleepwalking through pre-war versions of BioShock 1 areas to find they're currently destroyed ), but even that was completely different because that stuff was either too predictable or boring. I wish there was a lot made in this game as DLC, but it seemed like this was too ambitious of a project to deliver the kind of gaming mechanics for it, not to mention a big delay that was mostly revision. May be if they didn't have to talk about the game that much, or even just delay it for another year, then they could have done most of this stuff.68.72.219.146 20:30, September 2, 2013 (UTC)

Picture Booker with a Beard. Edit

Due to the new picture of Booker with the China Broom and a stubble on his face, but i'm just wondering if we'll get a chance to see him with a full beard?AmberWing65 (talk) 00:16, February 5, 2013 (UTC)

Debt Edit

"Bring us the girl, wipe away the debt."

Booker's gambling losses have him owing money to (presumably) the mob. To pay it off, he hands Anna DeWitt to the Lutece's in exchange for Comstock's money to "wipe away the debt." Later, stricken with remorse for his choice and regretting it, he chases down the Lutece's and Comstock, trying to save his girl. Comstock and Anna get through the tear, though Anna loses part of her finger in the process. Later, very drunk, Booker is brought into the Colombia universe by the Lutece's, out of revenge for Comstock killing them. He is told to "bring us the girl and wipe away the debt", and his wounded fragile mind accepts this as fact.

If you look around in "The Room", you can find his old lottery tickets and such. From what I got from the game, he regrets it immediately, and then goes after Comstock and the Luteces. Twenty years later, Robert approaches Booker telling him that he can get Anna back. I'm pretty sure that he wasn't drunk at the time of getting to the lighthouse, it wouldn't sense for him to approach such a important thing without all his facilities intact. It was probably just an effect of crossing into multiple realties. 107.196.168.71 01:33, April 6, 2013 (UTC)

Replica of Booker DeWitt's Box Edit

The image of the replica box was found here as well as the interior of the box. This box contained information about BioShock Infinite for the press, a bunch of collectables, and a flash drive full of screenshots and info on BioShock Infinite. Again this box was exclusivly for the press. PANDA COMPANY001 (talk) 02:22, March 16, 2013 (UTC)

Booker and Comstock Edit

Concerning SPOILERs:


If Booker and Comstock are the same person, how did he end up in Colombia, if we are following the Booker that didn't choose the baptism? Since he rejected it, then that would mean that he didn't become Comstock and therefore Colombia wouldn't exist in his reality. Did he end up in the Comstock reality through a tear or something? Also, why did he go to Colombia if he had already paid the debt?


KalKent (Anton) (Earth-1218) (talk) 00:03, March 29, 2013 (UTC)


He was brought into Comstock's universe by the Lutece's. Booker is not Comstock, they are both "two sides of the same coin"-Booker is the man who rejected the baptism, Comstock is the one that did not. They are from different universes. Yes he ended up in Colombia through a tear-this is shown at the end of the game. He went to Colombia to save his daughter, but due to the Lutece's "thought experiment," he has delusions that he must save the girl to wipe away the debt and that is all he remembers of his past. That is until you continue to play and remember things...

Booker's age  Edit

During the flashbacks in Booker's office, his badge can be seen uncovered showing his birthday is 4/19/1874. The history of Columbia exhibit in the hall of heroes also states that Comstock was born in 1874. Given that the events of Bioshock Infinite take place in July, 1912, both men are 38 years old. Lutece says Comstock appears much older because of his exposure to the siphon, which also gave him cancer.


Tokensonly (talk) 18:07, March 31, 2013 (UTC)


Good info, thanks. That also fits with historical army recruiting ages--Booker would have been 16 at the time of Wounded Knee, which was the minimum legal age to join the army prior to 1898.

Molotov.cockroach (talk) 23:30, April 6, 2013 (UTC)

NOT AN ALTERNATE VERSION Edit

I'm a little confused as to how Booker could possibly be an alternate version of Jack considering that Infinite and BioShock take place over 40 years apart. How would that be an alternate version? There is no evidence that says that 40 years later after Comstock died in Columbia, Andrw Ryan didn't build Rapture at the bottom of the ocean 

Mrbear420 (talk) 00:19, April 2, 2013 (UTC)

The Columbia Universe and the Rapture Universe are entirely different and alternate universes. Jack is the Rapture universe version of Booker, and Booker is the Columbia version of Jack. It's all very confusing. {{SUBST:Nosubst|User:Dr. Las Moore/Sig}} 00:25, April 2, 2013 (UTC)
I don't believe Booker's supposed to be a counterpart to Jack, considering both of them have completely different origins and are from different time periods. And it's explained how Booker could use the bathysphere, it has nothing to do with that Booker has the same genes as Andrew Ryan.
KalKent (Anton) (Earth-1218) (talk) 18:46, April 2, 2013 (UTC)
It's possible that he's related to one of Andrew Ryan's inner circle, considering that he can use bathyspheres after the genetic lock installed on the system prevented anyone from using them except Andrew Ryan, his inner circle and any who are related to them. Vae Infectus (talk) 20:36, April 16, 2013 (UTC)
        Constants and variables 98.211.205.107 05:05, April 24, 2013 (UTC)
Actually, depending on what year they were in Rapture, it is entirely possible that Booker wouldn't need to be related to Ryan's inner circle, since it seems that was only in effect during Ryan's rule after the war started. Examples of this no longer being the case are found in Bioshock 2; Mark Meltzer used a bathysphere to enter Rapture, yet would have had no prior connection to the city. Likewise, the couple found in the wrecked bathysphere early in the game seem only to be a random young couple and it is unlikely either of them were members of or related to Ryan's inner circle. Since this rule appears to only have been in effect during the war, while Ryan was alive, and since that period of time only spans a period of about two years, we can safely assume that they were more likely to have appeared after the rule was lifted, making that relation unnessasary to facilitate the use of the bathyspheres. 8th Penal Regiment (talk) 00:19, May 28, 2013 (UTC)
---------
Minervas Den  Porter(Sigma) and Tenenbaum use a Bathysphere.    Someone in BS1 said "that dont mean we wont hack it".    Who says the genetic locks Ryan had placed on the Bathyspheres were effective for very long ??  Also I though all kinds of people had private bathyspheres, and was Ryan able to 'Lock' all those?  
The most obvious is that with' infinite' universes (and thus infinite Raptures) that that one they appear with may not have had the 'genetic locks' (never done in that universe)  or that they didnt work (in that universe) or whaterver.       See how easy it is to justify anything you want when you have this 'infinite' plot crutch to use ?
Testxyz (talk) 07:00, August 13, 2013 (UTC)

"Wounded Knee itself is seen as a massacre" Edit

"Wounded Knee itself is seen as a massacre and actions of cruelty such as gunning down innocent children were seen and thus Booker's actions are not too suprising. Twenty medal of honours were awarded but judging by Booker's display frame he was not himself awarded one."

I'm not sure this information is relevant to the article. It doesn't really add anything to the page other than attempting to justify Booker's actions, which is at best unnecessary and at worst goes against neutrality.

Molotov.cockroach (talk) 19:05, April 7, 2013 (UTC)


Those were the days (before the reforms) when the CMoH was handed out ;like candy for political reasons.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Testxyz (talkcontribs) 07:02, August 13, 2013(UTC). Please remember to sign your posts with ~~~~.

Anna listed in the family section Edit

I'm curious what others think about this, so I won't do any editing until I have some input: is it a spoiler to have "Annabelle 'Anna' DeWitt (Daughter)" listed in the character infobox? It's not eggregious, but Booker does say that Anna is his wife's name when it first comes up in-game, and sticks to that story until the end of the game. I think it's okay to leave Anna under the family section, but should we remove the (Daughter) label?


Molotov.cockroach (talk) 19:04, April 7, 2013 (UTC)


Alternative Interpretation of Ending Edit

Anna/Liz doesn't drown Booker, she baptizes him. It's a metaphor for forgiving him.

The entire story line is about a father guilty about his past (Wounded Knee) and worried about how his baby daughter will think of him.

Comstock is a Booker that didn't have a child, was baptized but never forgave himself so he built a persona (new name and "Prophet") to hide his past and lied to make himself look better that made him enemies (Slate with the Boxer-Rebellion, blaming the Indians for Wounded Knee and Daisy with Lady Comstock's suicide). He used the Tear technology to build Columbia (by observing technology in other times or dimensions) and it eventually made him impotent so he stole another Booker's baby, Anna, to raise as his own prodigy.

The baby is Elizabeth, so that final act where she's dunking you into the water is her (and every other version) forgiving you for what you did and what you could become (Comstock), thus ending the guilt inside Booker and destroying the possibility of Comstock emerging in another dimension. Mallissin (talk) 22:37, April 13, 2013 (UTC)


no, lady Comstock was murdered, zachary comstock built columbia with the aid of rosalind lutece, a top quantum physicist from his universe, before the tears. comstock had elizabeth stolen as he was booker, and needed an heir to columbia. and elizabeth did'nt baptise him, they drowned him before he could make his choice to either be baptised or not, as if he made the choice he would either become the booker who had a child, or comstock who had columbia. whichever he did NOT become would be created in another universe, and the cycle of bioshock infinite would repeat all over again. booker let himself be drowned by them, because he understood that if he could not make the choice, comstock would never be created, and so booker would never have to give up his daughter. this explains the bit at the end of the credits, booker awakens in his office on october 8th, 1893, the day he would've sold anna, but as comstock had been erased from existence, he could live out normally. 92.3.169.223 02:47, April 19, 2013 (UTC)


It's a metaphorical baptism, guys. It's a baptism that doesn't just "forgive" sins, it does something about their effects. It's the only baptism he could have accepted and still be the hero of the game, because it is a decisive action that does something to fix his mistakes, instead of just erasing them.

Molotov.cockroach (talk) 15:34, May 25, 2013 (UTC)




"Infinite" - but limited forgone conclusions -- so there is no Free Will to allow some alternate result???    Edit

Booker 'knowing' from  this time but cant possibly change anything, as he goes around again ???

====Actually  Elizabeth is on a March of Folly.    Those Universes ALL happened (defined as part of that "multiverse" quantum  hokum which is a defrocked theory almost universally rejected - but if the game is to adhere to that .....) and  EACH will ALWAYS happen.    She just splits off some more different universes when she acts to change them by meddling (ie- drowning Booker).  The ones we saw all happened and more besides - INFINITELY more, with EVERY possible outcome for every possible decision or quantum flip of a quark  -- THATS WHAT THE MULTIVERSE THEORY SAYS.       The original terrible things are there and nothing she can do will change THOSE .  She just has the illusion of changing ones she tries to change.====—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Testxyz (talkcontribs) 17:36, August 7, 2013(UTC). Please remember to sign your posts with ~~~~.



Luteces and their coin flipping -- 140 in a row - well then this happens to be the universe where they went around repeating their little 'test'  and it came up the same that many times .    1.3937965749081639463459823920405e+42  OTHER universes where that DIDNT happen and this just happens to be none of them.   Remember Sagan and his 'gogols'  (10^100)  ???   Well, Combinations of even simple events in the world being different quickly results in numbers you can no longer get your head around.   


Are we sure this isnt all a dream Booker is having in an insane asylum ???



—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Testxyz (talkcontribs) 17:36, August 7, 2013(UTC). Please remember to sign your posts with ~~~~.

Booker himself a reference to Han Solo? Edit

I noticed that Booker seems to be a expy of Han Solo

1. Both are begrudgingly (atleast Booker thought he was) on a mission to save a Princess type girl for money to pay off gambling debts.

2. Both are anti-heros, dark and troubled individuals who none the less do heroic acts (if for selfish reasons)

3. a similar rugged, abit unkempt look. complete with open collared shirt and vest.

4. Both use a stylised c96 mauser

5. compare:

http://media.officialplaystationmagazine.co.uk/files/2011/10/Bioshcok-Infinite-PS3-Booker-DeWitt-e1320017078450.jpg

and

http://latino-review.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Episode_4_Han_Solo_2.jpg


He kinda does reference Han Solo in a kinda different way.AmberWing65 (talk) 06:07, April 27, 2013 (UTC)

We could just say, "Booker shares many similarities to Star Wars character Han Solo. [List a few here] Whether this is intentional or not is unknown.Einsteinium99 (talk) 15:35, May 26, 2013 (UTC)


Except if its not as intentional, then it comes off as vague as speculation. Its like saying Handsome Jack looks like Booker all because they both wear vests with rolled sleeve shirts.68.72.219.146 20:40, September 2, 2013 (UTC) 

Article Image Spoiler Edit

Isn't the current portrait image of Booker DeWitt used sort of a spoiler with all the lighthouses in the background? Should they be editted out? (Elizabeth's current image for example doesn't even have a background at all). Weezerde (talk) 04:44, May 26, 2013 (UTC)

They don't really reveal anything if you haven't played up until that point, though, and by the time you get what they are they are no longer a spoiler.

Molotov.cockroach (talk) 01:40, June 19, 2013 (UTC)

really don't like that Elizabeth's image has no background, but Booker's, background doesn't reveal anything crucial. It might confuse some people, others might not even notice, but it certainly won't spoil anything.


Unownshipper (talk) 02:47, June 19, 2013 (UTC)
I don't see it as a spoiler. The background can mean anything, the game opens with a lighthouse. How is multiple lighthouses going to reveal anything? - Misterbunnsy (talk) 13:11, July 24, 2013 (UTC)

Bookers strength Edit

In the trivia section it is written that booker is very strong as evidence by his throwing enemies about. It does not mention the fact that should you use the hammer of strength at the carnival bookers strike is able to hit the top bell. In addition there are many (often tough looking) obsticals such as doors that elizabeth cannot move but booker can

Also someone should clean up the trivia section. Some points have been reinforced anough so that they can be counted as fact and therefore belong in the main article

109.149.159.1 20:48, June 4, 2013 (UTC)

The trivia isn't meant to be a place for things that don't have enough evidence to go into the body of the article. It's meant for things that don't fit there, and are tidbits of information.

Molotov.cockroach (talk) 01:39, June 19, 2013 (UTC)



Carnival Ring The Bell machines are almost always rigged.  There is a adjustable control that allows a child to ring the bell or the strongest man you can find fail.   I wouldnt use that as any evidence. -

Also just ignore real physics ---its not worth your while trying to reason with this fantasy.  Leaping 50+ feet using the 'magnetized'  skyhook,  etc...   OK.     They wanted certain special effects for the game but didnt go through the thought to actually justify them (except some vague "quantum" based 'cuz'  stuff) 

It is actually ironic that an important part of the game is supposedly 'Thought Experiment". (a way to visualize/explain some real system of real existance). Testxyz (talk) 07:14, August 13, 2013 (UTC)

Atheist? Edit

Is Booker atheist because if you listen to all of the little things he says he souds like an atheist which woud be ironic since he is super religious in a differnt universe.

He could be. Since Comstock, his other possibility, is the one who accepts the baptism and becomes a "changed man", accepting religion to an excessive, extremist degree, it's a not a far cry to think that Booker, the possibility that rejects the baptism, rejects religion consequently. And use the four tildes to sign your posts. - Misterbunnsy (talk) 13:13, July 24, 2013 (UTC)

While never directly stated, yes it is implied multiple times; Booker is very cynical, which might come off as atheistic during that time period, such as when he comments on Comstock in Battleship Bay:

"Give a man a little power, and he falls in all kinds of love with himself".

Another line that implies this is that first line players hear, repeated as Booker and Elizabeth set off for the Hand of the Prophet:

"Booker...are you afraid of God?"
"No...but I'm afraid of you".

Booker DeWitt is clearly not a God-fearing man. Key of Destiny (talk) 14:49, July 24, 2013 (UTC)




" super religious in a differnt universe"  - is Comstock actually religious (in what he really believes) or is he like so many others who abuse religion for their own gains???     Are there any recorder  recordings of his inner thoughts that say one way or  the other ????

Testxyz (talk) 07:19, August 13, 2013 (UTC)



""One thing I've learned; if you don't draw first, you don't get to draw at all."Edit

Of course several famous gunfighters also have said that its not who draws fasterst, but who shoots straightest (and outside the limiting rules of the old west gunfight it is probably alot more true.)Testxyz 17:59, August 16, 2013 (UTC)

-

Okay?Einsteinium99 (talk) 18:49, August 16, 2013 (UTC)


With so many NPCs firing at Booker, it seems THEY are mostly 'drawing first' instead of  'shooting straightest'.

As I figured when they mentioned bigger shootout scenes (more NPC opponents at same time) I figured they would have to make them even worse shots than usual.

Testxyz 08:33, August 18, 2013 (UTC)

Lock the Page Edit

We need to lock the Booker DeWitt page so certain users like Crunkus stop adding their speculation.

--Gearslover01 (talk) 05:51, August 25, 2013 (UTC)

Was Booker Dewitt an Army Deserter ???Edit

How long were the enlistments in the US Army at the time he joined. At 16 he was pretty attypical when full grown men wanted the jobs.   3 or 4 years ?

If he was a deserter, then he probably never would have been a Pinkerton 'Agent', but could have been one of the thug types the Pinkertons hired for temporary service for strike breaking actions.

75.36.136.18 17:08, September 2, 2013 (UTC)



"During his time in the Army, he held the rank of Corporal, but at one point he Attained the rank of Staff Sergeant as seen in his 7th Cavalry display in his office, including two Medals of Honor. His rank is an anachronism, however. The U.S. Army would not create the rank of Staff Sergeant until after the First World War. Additionally, in 1890, NCO chevrons were worn point down, not point up, as shown in the display. The Army only settled on point up chevrons in 1902. [[|[6]]] "

Also a bit young to rise so fast ???    HE was 16 when he started and left around 18 ?? (within a few years (1893) to hobnob/deal with congressmen and senators ... but thats another issue)   Getting to corporal that fast usually unlikely -- sergeant ??  really unlikely.  (this wasnt the Civil War when men could advance quickly because of mass casualties and recognized merit.   Few positions opened up, with much more experienced men waiting very long for them)

The Congressional Medal of Honor  wasnt what we consider it today.  Example - in the Civil War every man in an ENTIRE UNIT was  awarded one for simply reenlisting.   At the time of Wounded knee they were still being handed out by the politicians like candy.


Testxyz (talk) 16:20, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

Lock It Edit

this page needs to be locked by an admin and any further information or speculation should be discussed here before it is added rather than a bickering back and forth between two users. talk pages are meant to resolve editing wars like these so please use them. speculation is not fact, so until it has been confirmed, it should be disscused here. 

Equillibrium (talk) 03:15, September 4, 2013 (UTC)

Booker DeWitt (Columbia)/(Rapture) Edit

I was thinking, if the Booker DeWitt from Burial at Sea turns out to be a completely different character than the one in Infinite, with an detailed past and all, we should consider making him his own page. Of course that can wait for after the release of Episode 1 and maybe Episode 2, but I'll leave this here as a reminder for later. Pauolo (talk) 21:16, October 8, 2013 (UTC)


Agreed.
Unownshipper (talk) 21:57, October 8, 2013 (UTC)

== Could Booker Possibly be Jack in a Different Universe? ==

208.102.217.45 20:15, October 30, 2013 (UTC)DanTalkBioshock



If you take a close look at Jack and Booker's Face they look quite the same But Jack looks younger

I mean Jack has brown hair also Booker has brown hair

Anna (elisabeth) Is like a little sister to Booker by saying that to her cloths on what she wears and booker defends her.

Jack defends Little sister's like Elisabeth too

Elisabeth has a Guardian (Songbird) And Booker is defending her just like Jack

Could this possibly mean Jack and Booker may be the same but in a different universe?

Just look at booker and jack Compare something to their Face

Technically, since the game revolves around the Multiverse theory, then that means that Booker is indeed those characters. Heck, since it's multiverse theory, that means that Booker could be Sofia Lamb. With multiverse, it has infinite universes so that means that Booker could be any single character in any of the games. Likewise with the other characters. BillStef (talk) 21:37, October 30, 2013 (UTC)

Booker repeating Comstock Edit

I've notice something during the first confrontation between Booker and Comstock on the way to Monument Island, when the prophet has his face shown on the side of a zeppelin (which he will later use to trap Booker in while it goes in flames). If you pay enough attention to the conversation, you can hear Booker's voice repeating quietly the end of Comstock's lines. I'm pretty sure that's Booker's voice and not Comstock's deformed by the loudspeakers, because I've been aware of that first in the French version, where the French voice actor (whose voice is pretty much distinct from Comstock's French dubbing) can be heard whispering those lines.

Still I think that's the only scene where it occurs, and if others can confirm it then it will be interesting to add this to the page. That also explains why Booker suddenly had a nosebleed at that peculiar moment, like facing himself even without knowing can create a Tear reaction.

Pauolo (talk) 19:11, November 9, 2013 (UTC)

" The tally marks on the chalkboard worn by Robert Lutece at the Fairgrounds represent the number of attempts Booker has tried to accomplish his mission."Edit

The tally marks the attempts made by  Bookers  from different dimensions ....

He fails, he dies and they have to find another one someplace else....

It actually reflects the futility of the whole thing (its a game to the Luteces who have nothing better to do) that they are not really fixing anything as there are an Infinite number of other places their Infinite duplicates selves have messes up (or not 'messed up', and everything in between)


Booker jumps (bails out) to another reality several times ...  those previous places nothing is fixed and goes on as before.  Might as well have just jumped to a reality where everything is OK and him and Elizabeth are living it up in Paris.  Meanwhile, in an Infinite number of universes, Infinite bad things continue to happen because of Infinite bad things Infinite Bookers have done (or not done).

Testxyz (talk) 10:36, November 12, 2013 (UTC)

On December 29, 1890,Edit

World's Columbian Exposition   opened May 1, 1893


So thats  2 -1/3  years to get all the stuff Comstock supposedly did, done ?

Or being an alternate timeline/universe, time runs 10X slower in that universe ???

Details dont really matter when you are dealing with historic stuff I guess. Sad, when they hyped it as having that allegedly part of the game.

The other alternate Bookers Edit

Can we add sections about the other  Bookers we see ingame and in the DLC?

1. Epilogue Booker: the Booker we play as after the end game, the one with Schrodingers!Anna

2. Burial at sea Alternate Booker: The Booker whose Anna was accidentally killed by Rapture!Comstock/Booker.

3. Decoy Booker: The Booker whose image is pulled in to act as a decoy during combat.

4. Im not really counting the other Bookers we see in the "Infinite" lighthouse area. but we can maybe put a small section in there too?


208.86.13.114 07:15, December 22, 2013 (UTC)RemingtonV208.86.13.114 07:15, December 22, 2013 (UTC)

Alternate Bookers Edit

Should there be a section on the Burial at Sea - Episode 1 Booker in the alternate Bookers section? Since he is actually an alternate version of Comstock why not just have him in the alternate Comstocks section?

Military experience ... odd :Edit

"During his time in the Army, he held the rank of Corporal, but at one point he Attained the rank of Staff Sergeant, as seen in his 7th Cavalry display in his office, garnering two Medals of Honor"


This Booker (or did he steal it off the wall of another Booker thru a 'Tear' -- its starting to be hard to keep track...)  must have stayed in the army ALOT longer to get rank like that (just a 16+ year old at Wounded Knee... even thats suspicious for Army hirings).  The miltary was pretty small in those years, with lots of men with decades of experience waiting to 'attain' rank and somehow Booker becomes some flavor of 'sergeant' ???


In any case, was then hired by Pinkertons in 1892  --- hardly any time at all to 'attain' any real rank or the 'medals of honor'.    Was it not just Comstock who faked alot of their past ?


They (game writers) really didnt care about any logic/reality here and compressed way too much into too short a time for Comstock or Bookers (and Columbias) histories.    


What?   Stop complaining about a fictional game? 

Well when they start off touting/hyping the game for historic significance about social ills of America (making it 'special'), and then they lay weird crap like this down onto the players,  its kind of like declaring that Watergate was really all about Smurfs  or the Cuban Missile Crisis was really over someones faulty dentures.

So stop complaining and go play the mediocre bang bang part of the fictional quasi-historic game with its pseudo-science fantasy that worst of all never lived upto the hype the trailers showed.


There is Good Fiction, Bad Fiction and Stupid Fiction......


Not really hard to explain the rank of Sergeant. After Wounded Knee they bounced Booker out of the Army for being underaged and gave him a higher rank when he left to help cover it up. --Solarmech (talk) 07:15, June 11, 2014 (UTC)

Isn't Booker dead?Edit

Shouldn't booker be listed as "Dead"because he is killed at the end of bioshock infinite and in burial at sea.

173.8.171.169 18:41, April 1, 2014 (UTC)


Infinite Bookers....


Scene from Spartacus   " I AM BOOKER !!!! "


-


You have a point, its like saying that there's infinite Andrew Ryan's and that hes alive in another universe, you could basically say that about anyone. --Shacob (talk) 06:47, April 2, 2014 (UTC)


Exactly, if Booker isn't dead because he is still alive in other realities, then no character on the wiki should be listed as "Dead" because they are all alive in some reality.

173.8.171.169 18:31, April 2, 2014 (UTC)


Yup, confusing isnt it .....


Booker (who wasnt comstock)

Booker (who was comstock)

Booker (who wasnt comstock but was a Vox martyr)

Booker (the other 124 who are on the Luteces tally board)

Booker (the voice in Elizabeths head)

Booker (the comstock who changed to booker who went to Rapture)


Lets not even BEGIN on all the different Elizabeths ...



So, no one on the wiki should me marked as "dead"

173.8.171.169 17:01, April 4, 2014 (UTC)

I hope you are being sarcastic, because we cant think in that way, there is infinite variables for EVERYTHING and it would just be ridicules to post information on the fact that in some other universe something completely else happens. what we see or hear about in the games are what is counted and yes there are countless different Bookers, Elizabeths and Comestocks but the ones we know (see in the game) is what counts and in this case, everyone of them is dead. For example if we would take this out of the games perspective; its like saying that "Michael Jackson isn't dead, he is alive in another universe".

Shacob (talk) 08:06, June 11, 2014 (UTC) 


Which is why its usually understood by most people that talking about a fictional character as being alive or dead is pointless (and why the wiki probably shouldnt even have that category/designation in its shown data except when talking specific detail about a particular point in the story).

Booker's actions at Wounded KneeEdit

The section that described Booker DeWitt's actions at Wounded Knee and the causes for them actually describes *Comstock's* actions and motivations, not Booker's. Booker and Comstock come from different "base" realities as shown by Lutece being male in Booker’s reality and female in Comstock’s. So we do not really know how Booker acted. He certainly did some bad things by his own account, but there is not evidence on what exactly he did. He may have just killed innocent people rather than burning people alive and taking trophies as Comstock describes. Also even Comstock’s description of events is highly suspect. He is already known to have lied a great deal about his actions at Wounded Knee and is a VERY poor source of information. I am not suggesting that this section be removed or rewritten. But a note on it’s accuracy would seem to be in order. --Solarmech (talk) 07:48, June 11, 2014 (UTC)


Yes, unless they actually showed a flashback (labeled as NOT being someones memory) or had a Narrative Text making a declaration,  just about anything of this sort cant really be taken as factual, only potentially true. --DreadedNibbleyPibbleys (talk) 22:57, June 12, 2014 (UTC)

To avoid being stigmatized by his comrades, he scalped Native American victimsEdit

If it was a racist thing  (Native American == not white)  he was trying to avoid, then 'scalping' enemies  doesnt seem the way to do it.


If its some kind of loyalty issue to his comrades (indian siding with other indians  or somesuch)  that still doesnt make sense since the Calvary regularly used large numbers of  Indian Scouts, and even members of the very same tribe as police on the reservations.   Enemy tribes in particular had very little empathy for their historic enemies in these roles.


Historically a LOT of people scalped their enemies as proof that they had killed someone. Scalping was far from something only Native Americans did. "Blood Bill" Anderson took scalps from Union troops in the US Civil War. And I am sure that you can find similar actions (fingers or other body parts) being taken by people on the Frontier from those that they killed.

Looking at what happened historicly at Wounded Knee Booker/Comstock's actions don't mesh well with happened (Yes, I know it's an alternate universe). I am not an expert on it in any way, but many of the death were caused by the 7th's cannons fireing into the encampment and troops firing wildely. Only when some of the people started running did the real massacer happen with some calvery troops getting on their horses and hunting down unarmed survivors. (Something that often gets overlooked is that 31 Army troopers were killed as well).

And as above, the racists thing does not fit well either. Of course it must be remembered that the source for the burning and racism by other troops is Comstock. Who lies all the time about what happened at Wounded Knee. --Solarmech (talk) 14:33, June 18, 2014 (UTC)

Where was Booker Born?Edit

Now it's clear we are not going to be able to figure out an exact location on where was born but I think we can get at least an idea of a general one. So what do we know about Booker's early life? He got into the Army at 15 or 16 years old. (Probably 15) And was assigned to the 7th Cav. This means more than you might think. The Cavalry were the more elite units of the US Army of the time and you HAD to be a good horseman in order to be in one. Considering that Booker was under aged he probably needed to be better than most. What this means that Booker was likely born outside a major city or at least spent most of his time in the countryside. And while Booker says he is from New York City, after 19 years of living there, he certainly could consider it his home and where he is from.

Booker also has some native American ancestry but looking at him you can’t see it and you don’t see any in Elizabeth either. That means it is back probably two generations, if not more. (A full blooded Grandparent or Great Grandparent). The version of Booker killed in the Vox Rebellion (Martyr of the Rebellion Booker) is known to speak Sioux. There is really only two places he could have learned this. Either his ancestry is Sioux and a relative taught him or he lived in the region where they lived and he learned it from contact with members of the tribe. Which isn’t very likely frankly, but it’s possible. The Sioux roamed and area that included modern day Minnesota, the Dakota’s, Iowa, Nebraska and up into southern Canada.

Given Booker’s apparent horsemanship, heritage and the fact he speaks Sioux I think there is enough evidence to say it’s likely he came from the Upper Midwest. And if he is part Sioux it’s makes his actions at Wounded Knee even more horrific to him. He might have killed distant relatives. --Solarmech (talk) 18:49, June 22, 2014 (UTC)


This is all very sound logic.
However, I fear you're putting more thought into this than the game creators did. While it's very true that some men often lied about their age so that they could join the military, the fact that he was so young when he was at Wounded Knee seems intentional so that he's a "relatively" young 38 when he journeys to Columbia (makes him more attractive/relatable to the game-playing demographic).
Furthermore, what's the branch of the military the average individual is like to know of/heard of that would exist at the time of Wounded Knee? The Cavalry! I can picture the conversation: "Does that position make a lot of sense for Booker's character?" "Not really, but what does the average game player know?"
The unfortunate fact is that not much is said about Booker's past in the game (this is quite deliberate), so any assumptions we make about his place of birth, no matter how logical they might be, will be supposition. Unless Levine or someone else in the design process directly comments about the location (like they did about the heritage), this is just not going to be solved. The safest option is to list him as "American."


Unownshipper (talk) 21:37, June 22, 2014 (UTC)

Where else? --ZanyDragon (talk) 22:17, June 22, 2014 (UTC)

@Unownshipper I think you have underestimated how much a good developer/writer put into his characters. Though we usually don't see it, many times a full histroy is written up. We know from MomoCon's "Ask me Anything with Troy Baker and Courtnee Draper" that a full background on Booker was made. In fact Troy was complaining about being given *too much* information about Booker at one point. They probably do know where he was born, bit I doubt they will tell us. But yeah, I didn't think American would be changed (nor was I trying to change it) and there isn't enough to nail down a general location for the wiki. :( sm --Solarmech (talk) 12:18, June 23, 2014 (UTC)

"Booker awakens in his residence on October 8, 1893—the same day on which he lost Anna—and opens the door to her room, where he sees her crib and calls out her name before it cuts to black."Edit

Just before a Tear opens there in that room and it all starts over again.  Classic time loop Twist which in the Sci-Fi genre is often used to imply the futility of meddling through TimeTravel.    Twilight zone ending would be only at the end of that touching scene to see the faces of Booker and or Anna and them being Insectoid or Cat people or some other shocking 'alien' visage.

75.36.139.234 04:56, June 29, 2014 (UTC)

Booker's Native American AncestryEdit

The purpose of this is hopefully convince people that the current phrasing of "Booker DeWitt is a New Yorker of partial Native American descent" should NOT be changed.

While there certainly is enough evidence that points to Booker having some Native American ancestry, I don't think anyone has gone into how much. So let's take a look at Booker DeWitt. Skin tone, features, hair color all speak to European heritage. You can find Native Americans's with green eyes, but it is VERY rare. Most people with green eyes come from Europe. (Fun Fact: only about 2% of all humans have green eyes.) All this points to Booker's Native American ancestry being more than a little deluted. At LEAST two generations (Booker would only be 1/4th) but more likely three generations (1/8th). Neither are nearly high enough percentages to say he is a Native American. To further show how delituted it is look at daughter. She shows no indication either. That easy enough for everyone? sm --Solarmech (talk) 13:23, June 29, 2014 (UTC)


I can tell your intentions are well-meaning with this post, but it's a REALLY bad idea to try and identify "how much" someone belongs to a particular ethic group by their appearance. Genes determining skin color, eye color, hair color, et cetera are tricky and don't always play the way one expects them to. I'm not trying to be overly PC, I'm just saying, I can see someone being offended by this post and talk of the heritage being "diluted." Besides, who's to say Booker's parent/grandparent (whoever was Native American), was %100 Native American from the start?
Point being, it's impossible to say what what percent Native American Booker is. To the original point, "Booker DeWitt is a New Yorker of partial Native American descent" seems like an OK sentence that should hopefully satisfy people.


Unownshipper (talk) 22:07, June 29, 2014 (UTC)
I think you mixing up trying to figure out what Booker is not, is the same as showing what he is. I am not trying to run a Blood Quantum here. And I know very well the tricks genetics can play. Better than most since my family has a rather varied background (including that of the Americas). But in Booker's case we see almost no indications of his Native American heritage in two succesive generations. That does not happen often unless that heritage is back a few generations. And that puts him as having some Native American Haritage as opposed to being a Native American.
If you can come up with a short term for "The reduction of the amount of Native American genetic material in a individual due to repeated mixing with European genetic material." I will gladly use it. --Solarmech (talk) 12:17, June 30, 2014 (UTC)

Maybe his name is a pun on the baptism decision? Book it, or do it?

A clear statement that Booker is part native American from Levine's Twitter Account "RT @Thresh009: @IGLevine is booker lakota? -part native American" Not sure if the reference should be changed, add to, or nothing done. Opps forgot sig. sm --Solarmech (talk) 14:21, June 9, 2015 (UTC)

Martyr Booker's death Edit

Going through the subtitle texts of Burial at Sea 2, I came upon this line from supposedly one of the male Vox fighters: "Daisy said you'd be coming, said you stabbed DeWitt in the back. Ain't it lucky for me that we ran into each other."

Has anyone heard that line in-game? Pauolo (talk) 21:43, March 3, 2015 (UTC)

I haven't, but then again I haven't stalked the Vox soliders in BaSE2 like I did (still do) with the Splicers. It sounds like the dialog occurs when he spots the player or in battle.

Shacob (talk) 21:13, March 4, 2015 (UTC)

Where/when did Booker learn to speak Sioux?Edit

Now I don't think we will be able to get a 100% answer on this question we should be able to get at least 95%. :) Ok, first off how hard is the Sioux language to learn? Probably not easy. About the only place Booker could learn would be from a native speaker and those would only be in the northern planes and western Great Lakes region. And for Booker to have even basic fluency it would take years of practice. His time in the US Army was likely less than 2 years (I figure only about 1 1/2 years). Not enough time and being in the Army would have given Booker little chance to work on it. Learning after Wounded Knee seems very unlikely since he seems to have stayed in the Eastern US (New York City most of the time) where there would be almost no speakers of the language. So that leaves him growing up learning Sioux. This would point to him growing up near Sioux lands and most likely being taught by a relative. Now this does NOT mean that Booker is part Sioux, but it seems likely he had friends or a relative that was. sm --Solarmech (talk) 18:27, July 14, 2016 (UTC)


Ok, here we go. What we DO know are two main things: 1.) Booker has a Native American heritage. 2.) Booker was in the U.S. Cavalry circa 1890.
This is (in my humble opinion) enough information to say that Booker was probably born in the Great Plains region with either a parent or grandparent (probably the latter) of Sioux origin. This heritage would allow for Booker's knowledge of the Sioux language from a young age, and also helps to explain the admittance of the 16 year old DeWitt into the Cavalry. At this point in history, enlisting soldiers that were familiar with the customs and language of the "enemy" was quite common. This would also provide a decent explaination for why Booker is now on the East Coast, as his ancestor was probably either murdered or imprisoned by the Federal Government by 1890. Hope that helps! TheLighthouse (talk) 22:15, July 14, 2016 (UTC)


While it'd be improper to post anything speculative on a topic as important as Booker's early childhood on the main page, these are two very well-argued points. As Solarmech stated, it's unlikely we'll be able to get a 100% answer (unless Ken Levine reveals all this information later via Twitter like he did about how half the cast of BioShock was Jewish), but this is a great theory that we've got listed out in this section.


Unownshipper (talk) 03:02, July 15, 2016 (UTC)


The game writers really should have worked their timelines a little bit better (ie- this 16 year old soldier in 1890 is somehow 3 years from 'building' Columbia...).  They really should have had him alot older as getting a job in the army was hard with the severe budget cuts between real wars  and extremely unlikely for a 16 year old (did he convincingly fake an older age to get in ?) to take a soldier's job when the army had downsized. 
The racism that existed might make a 'half-breed' also quite unlikely in a regular army unit like the 7th Cavalry.   Even if he was really a scout, there were other more trusted tribes  for scouts against the Sioux (like the Pawnee).    Note the convenient timing of him getting IN just before this massacre (otherwise he would have to been even younger joining if he was in the cavalry for even a year previous).
So likely Booker (most probably wholey a white man)  learned (some) Sioux when he lived/grew up  near a Sioux reservation, which were imposed to an even greater extent after the Little Bighorn (1876).  He may just have been taunted for his knowledge/opinions by bored soldiers 'hazing' the newbie (particularly anything 'Sioux') ... He does seem to react by doing actions that show he lost his empathy (if he ever had any) for the indians.
75.36.139.2 07:41, July 15, 2016 (UTC)


While I agree that the timeline could be a little smoother, it has the potential to fit together. Most of the actual Native scouting groups were disbanded around 1877 (i.e. the Pawnee and Crow Scouts), with the U.S. Army preferring to enlist members familiar with the Indian ways, as opposed to actual full-blooded Indians. This would explain Booker's commander taunting him about his heritage, while not being actually hardcore racist towards him (you have to remember that even though people were more racist back then, they were still people that could recognize the potential in another).

Also, we know that Booker isn't "wholly" White, as Ken Levine confirmed his Native American heritage. And while it is true that Booker seems to lose his empathy for the Indians, such a thing did occur in history with those men who were of mixed blood. They had to make a difficult choice between which group of people they were going to be loyal to. Many chose the ancestry that promised them the most security and opportunity, and a young mind forced to make such a terrible decision can snap under its weight. I think that the choice Booker made at Wounded Knee is one of the most intriguing elements of his character, and I believe the game is richer for it. TheLighthouse (talk) 13:38, July 15, 2016 (UTC)

People getting into the military by lying about their ages is nothing new. IIRC someone who was only 14 got into the US Navy during World War II. I suspect Booker went in when he was only 15, but no one questioned him much about is age. Why? Booker was big. The average height in the US at the time was only about 5 foot 8 inches. Booker is 6 foot, 1 inch. (Today Booker would be something like 6 foot 5 inches). Booker was in long enough to get the rank of Corporal (Slate calls him Corporal at one point.) Which is why it’s clear Booker had been in service some time.
While the US military was small in the 1890's, it was underbudgeted, conditions were poor and the pay was bad. Desertion was a noted problem and keeping people in uniform was not easy. So why would Booker join the US Army while underaged and stay there? His home was worse maybe?
As TheLighthouse mentioned the US Army was not as racist as some people think it was. In fact the US Army likely treated the Indians better than most even when they were fighting. Looking through massacres against Indians, most were committed by state militia and armed (white) civilians. Of the two the US Army did do, one was Wounded Knee and the other the result of a trooper intentionally leading a unit to the wrong camp to keep his (Indian) wife’s family safe. (An accident). Now there would have been some racism, but the US Army wasn’t a bastion of it. It couldn’t be considering the constant contact. But even a little harassment, even good natured jokes can have a horrible effect on a 16 year old. Particularly if the person already has problems as I suspect Booker did. (The cycle of abuse started long before Elizabeth was born?) So Booker’s young age plays into the story and gives him more a reason to go berserk.
Columbia was built for the Chicago 1893 Exposition with a lot of money from the US Federal Govt. (Many nations ego’s were on display and nations built huge and expensive displays. The Eiffel Tower was built for another Exposition and was never intended to be permanent by most people. Except Eiffel of course.) Construction of the White City only started two years before the Exposition opened and Columbia was kept around and expanded as the years went by. I suspect that Emporia was likely the many part of the Columbia seen at the Exposition. sm --Solarmech (talk) 11:39, July 16, 2016 (UTC)
-
Racism was still there. Half Sioux might rankle more than a few in the 7th Cavalry, as a soldier . Being a  scout he might be accepted, but thats pure speculation.  Never mentioned later - the situation about everyone NOT in this mentions  not-so-racist army, he also had to deal with tons of Racism everywhere after that -- never mentioned was it ?).    He might've been a Eastern Indian partial descendant (he does have a heavy beard) which he could largely hide.  BUT the narrative has him Sioux related somehow.
A corporal at 16 ?    When (not a few) men who have been in for years are passed up ? BAd odds for that.  SO that most likely would have to push his being IN the army to an even younger age (harder and harder to 'fake' the given age).
Or did they say he made corporal AFTER the massacre ??(rthe political handouts of CMH for Wounded Knee was rediculous and led to making it award more stringent)  Did he earn the rank with additional time in ??(would makes his building columbia time all the shorter - yes he was thoroughly involved in columbia as per the rest of the Infinite  plot stuff).
Add his career as a minister(?) and 'prophet' in between (note- that requires Tear stuff working and all the reputation building of his prophetizing -- so also squeeze THAT time into the timeline).  Remember they said he supposedly swayed politicians (more time...)
If he aged at this time nobody seems to have noticed this overly much.   (17 to a 60 year old -- kinda gets notice).   Speculate that he changed identities ? More difficulties and complications (and time).
Becoming a religious figure 'talking the talk'  - just cursory snake oil-like  talk wouldnt fool enough people about religion that MANY people took seriously in those times.
The Exposition was actually funded by rich people from the Chicago. US was in a Depression at that time 1893 and the Government wasnt as free spending as it was now with Taxpayer money they dont have.  So extend the Booker-starting-Columbia-project to include a significant pre-build phase MONEY Raising period.  AND thats AFTER proving (prototyping for a sufficient demonstration) the whole thing wasn't a scam - and in the US governent that usually took years )  Private or Government being raised meant all kinds of politics being played/wheeling and dealing.  And THOSE people would want (and get access) access to ALL they paid for.
Its starting to get conflict upon conlicts in logic.  They can add all the odd/unlikely details to patch their narrative if they want.  The dates and time spans involved really cant be vaguarized
----

>Ok, there's a couple of things we need to get out of the way before we move on.

1.) No one is saying that the army wasn't racist. In fact, I even addressed this in my first response. The difference is people tend to equate racist SENTIMENT with racist ACTIONS. Being racist (especially the racism that was common back then) on a personal level is different to being racist on a social level, hence the difference between Booker's superiors taunting him about his heritage, and them hanging him from the nearest tree for not being White. Also, if Booker grew up on the Great Plains and moved to the East Coast after Wounded Knee, no one would even know about his mixed heritage unless he came right out and told them. I posit further that even if everyone on the East Coast automatically knew via some sixth sense that Booker had Sioux heritage, they wouldn't have cared (see above discussion of racism).

2.) People often have the misconception that every single person admitted into the Armed Forces starts as a Private and works their way up. While this is the case for a lot on enlistees, it is by no means the norm, especially when the Army is under-manned (heck, there were some people that ENTERED THE ARMY as Brigadier Generals during the Civil War). Combine the rampant desertions that were going on at this time with Booker's knowledge of Sioux language and customs, and it isn't unlikely that he was enlisted as a Corporal. The other possibility (as you already mentioned) is that he was promoted because of his actions at Wounded Knee, which would make Slate's use of his rank even more potent.

3.) While we don't know when/how Zachary Comstock (remember, we aren't talking about Booker after this point in the timeline, i.e. "right after Wounded Knee") met with Rosalind Lutece, but what we do know is that she had developed the whole quantum-particle (so, not giant balloons?) thing by 1890 (see A City, Suspended). Presentation of working technology of this magnitude would convince a lot of politicians pretty quick that this is something worth investing in. Not only that, but the scientific community had already validated it via cross-studies and peer review BEFORE 1890, thereby further lessening the time required. Combining these factors together gives us the probability that Comstock didn't have to do much "swaying" before everyone got on board (remember Comstock does like to over-exaggerate a bit).

4.) I seem to remember some other religious figure that was only in the ministry for ~3 years, and through his articulate manipulation of Scripture and his propensity to speak loudly managed to throw the entire world into chaos... Now who was that again? Oh right, Jesus of Nazareth. Turns out that if people are looking for revival and someone gives it to them, they'll follow him to hell and back (no pun intended). The character of Zachary Comstock is reminiscent of those fiery preachers from both Great Awakenings (as he is meant to be), and those people founded their own (sometimes quite large) communities, with their own special brand of Christianity to rely on. Joseph Smith immediately springs to mind, as the LDS church is THE most successful of these communities with over 15 MILLION (and growing fast, I'll add) members world-wide. Seems if you find the right message and deliver it to the right people, it doesn't take too long at all to get a major following going.

Also, remember that Comstock's accelerated aging only happened AFTER he moved to Columbia and started messing around with Tears, not before, and even then it took a while. No one was saying he was an old man at 17.

Anyway, hope that makes sense. I do see where you are coming from, but I feel that there ARE ways to make the timeline work. Should the timeline have been extened a little? Yeah, it should have, but that's not to say that it's entirely unmanagable now. TheLighthouse (talk) 14:06, July 16, 2016 (UTC)


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"but the scientific community had already validated it via cross-studies and peer review BEFORE 1890,"


Had they, or is that just an assumption?   SO if true doesnt that mean that all kinds of people would have the same knowledge/technology available to them (and thus resulting in Teddy Roosevelt sending Marines in Flying Dreadnoughts to recapture Columbia by 1905... WHICH *HE* WOULD DO).   Rest of World - 100s (2 magnitudes) of brilliant scientists  and engineers  (and foreign governments) , and yet more brainpower (ALL outside Columbia) ALL working on the uses of that amazing technology. If Columbia survives to 1912 they would have been a Technological backwater and not just a Cultural one -- completely superceded by the rest of the World.  Zeppelins made with advanced German engineering would look like spacecraft by 1912.   SO consider it wasnt likely that the Luteces gave away their secrets to 'peer review' .

Next funding :   Talking politicians into funding (taxpayer money they would have to raise and divert from their own projects - AND in the middle of a Economic Depression ).   REAL WORKING Demonstrations DEFINITELY required - and remember that 'lab experiments' does not  equal engineering into floating cities (or even a floating outhouse) overnight.  Time, money, failures, reattempts, accidents, upscaling, more funding, upscaling again...  (3 years is an incredibly short time for this kind of thing)

Something a bit more than    rapturerebornmmorpg.wikia.com /wiki/File:THISFLOATY2.jpg


Thats just the floaty stuff.   The 'Tear' stuff is a whole seperate project which had to be accomplished (around the same time or somewhat before) by the Luteces EARLY enough to justify the plot having the (now) "17 year old wonder prophet" make his climb into influence (which the Infinite story line talks about happening and his involvement in getting Columbia built).    Ditto bringing Robert and Elizabeth through Tear -- working.   How early Luteces started work on this 'quantum' stuff is vague.  But consider all the things they had to FIRST  invent just to have whatever magic machinery to do this 'quantum' stuff (technology doesnt just appear out of a vacuum, and usually is based on hundreds of years of predecessor development).   Google "1890 electonics" (or even (1890 electrical) to get an idea how truly primitive the REAL World was about such things (and thus how unlikely the whole technology really is -- which is a whole separate subject).


Please dont bring Jesus into this.  Your equating that as supporting argument to justify the faulty timeline is pointless.   Comstock is more like the 'False Prophet' the Bible mentions, and him and the Luteces and their cast of thousands couldn't match the miracles the Apostles witnessed  (see, Jesus is supposed to be a real God, and not some weird faux-religion crap that Levine came up with to pad the plot).


SO all in all, the 3 year timeline here really should have been at least 20 years at minimum leadup to reflect '"the way the world really works", even with the Fantasy aspect introduced, and that still with massive acceleration of events. Most good writers veer away from attaching/mentioning too many real world things interrelating into their fantasy, unless they just fly off into never never land -- which is ok if you arent trying to make cash off PC/controversially referencing/making-a-point-of  Historic "social ills", and such, which THIS game was (endlessly) HYPED as showing.    As it is, they really didn't care and just higgldy-piggledy shoehorned in all these "things" they came up with thinking it would  "show relevance".     I recall one of the reviewers (not one of those biased magazines they advertised with) saying "It all seemed more a bunch of writers trying to show how clever they were, when they really weren't".


75.36.143.192 05:03, July 17, 2016 (UTC)

It's not worth the effort TheLighthouse. You will never be able to convince 75.36.143.192 of anything because he will always ignore pertinent facts that shows he is wrong. For instance it's stated in the first sentence of the wiki page that Columbia was built by the US Government, but he totally ignores it. Something else he utterly misses is that the Panic of 1893 is called that because is STARTED in 1893. Columbia was have been finished or nearly finished before the Panic started. Basic research and checking dates shows this. There is also the VERY important point that most of what 75.36.143.192 is totally off the topic of this Talk. sm --Solarmech (talk) 13:11, July 17, 2016 (UTC)


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Sorry your 'facts' simply aren't.  They can say the 'US Government funded Columbia', but thats about as fantastical a happening in America at that time as 'time travel'/'tears' or quantum powered 'floating cities'  or 'Americans buying into Comstock's faux idolotrous religion'.  Read your history a little more (REAL HISTORY)  - the economy was deteriorating well before May 1893 - the writing was already on the wall and many parts of the economy were tanking the year before.   Read a bit more about what Federal level politics were like - If they had started discussions about 'building Columbia' when Booker was born, the US Legislature would still be arguing about it well after the Exposition was closed.  Go bother to see how long military ships took to build in those days (FYI - YEARS, and that was AFTER the FUNDING was previously lined up) -- as Columbia had to be MORE than plaster, lathing and chickenwire  which the Exposition's temporary buildings were built out of.

And since alot of the events all tie together (and are somehow wedged into that timeline), and the page is about Booker  --who diverges into Comstock, and Columbia that BOOKER visits and he is exposed to the BACKSTORY all these other events incorporate and are intertwined with,  it cannot be 'totally' off topic (despite YOU being Unanimous about It).   The whole tenuous Sioux/Corporal/massacre/baptism/prophet/lutece/influence/floaty-float wad is involved, and having them ALL stuffed into a 3 year interval is incredibly funny in a sad sort of way.

75.36.136.209 14:22, July 17, 2016 (UTC)


It may not be worth it Solarmech, but I'm going to give it one more shot.

1.) Perhaps peer review was a misstatement on my part, but we do KNOW (see provided link above) that there were other scientists involved in the project. However, even if it was peer reviewed, the only thing the world would gain would be the Lutece particle, and NOTHING ELSE. Why? Because the rest of the technological advances that occurred in Columbia were brought through Tears, which the rest of the world most certainly did not have access to as the technology wasn't developed until somewhere around 1893 AFTER Columbia had taken flight. This would have been a closely guarded secret by the Luteces as well as Comstock.


2.) Solarmech already covered this, so I'll just add a little extra tidbit: the world the game takes place in is different from the world we live it. GASP! I know, I know, please keep your seats, gentlemen. The point is, the economic downturn may not have even happened in this universe, but even if it did, it would have no bearing on the topic at hand.


3.) My mention of Jesus was only to illustrate that one doesn't need too much time on planet earth to cause a religious stir if one sets their mind to it. Again, look at Joseph Smith (a character that I personally feel is a great parallel with Comstock) and the following he gained in a very short period of time. People are gullible, and if someone comes to them speaking of Archangels and floating cities, and then delivers on the floating city, they will follow that person wherever they should go.


4.) An acceleration? Sure. A failure? No.

TheLighthouse (talk) 14:15, July 17, 2016 (UTC)


Unemployment was at it's lowest point in a decade in 1892. What more do you want? Also, remember, THIS IS AN ALTERNATE REALITY THAN THE ONE WE CURRENTLY LIVE IN! If it wasn't, Columbia would be floating around right now. You've got to suspend your disbelief for at least a little bit, or any fictional story will provide about as much enjoyment as a trans-orbital lobotomy.

You seem awfully hung up on the religious aspect as well. You probably don't know who Joseph Smith is or why I keep bringing him up, so I'll explain. Joseph Smith claimed to be visited first by God and Jesus themselves, and then by an angel who gave him great visions and prophecies (sound familiar yet?). He then went on to found many different (and remarkably large) religious communities who slowly grew to deify him because of the signs and wonders that he performed. While they received a large amount of persecution for their practices and beliefs, it served only to strengthen the community's resolve. They eventually packed up and moved to Utah, where they flourish to this day. You may have heard of them, they're called Mormons.

This all happened in the United States you are talking about. You seem unwilling to accept that people will believe almost anything given the right motivation/validation, and a prophet providing a floating city would be one heck of a motivator.


You also seem to still be hung up on issues that were already covered quite extensivley (i.e. Sioux heritage, enlistment as a corporal, etc.), so I'm going to leave this conversation here. I've said all I can on the issue, and that fact that you still aren't following is funny in a sad sort of way.

TheLighthouse (talk) 15:00, July 17, 2016 (UTC)


OK we are trying to approach this as much following reality as possible (more than the game writers cared to).


1) Consider someone has to BUILD all the stuff.  The government (And its money) are involved and they have their own people that they would FORCE onto the project.  SO every aspect of it would be known (and spies from other coutries would be crawling all over it while it was built and while it was at the exposition).  The rest of the later technology (ie-tear) is a seperate thing   - but the floaty stuff is the key technology.


2) unfortunately once you open that up then What all else is different ??? (Yes, Booker is apparently blasted into a parallel world - as it cant be the same one with Comstock in it)   Yet the STORY says the BS about EVERYTHING DIVERGED AT THE MOMENT OF THE BAPTISM  yada yada ---- so by THEIR definition (that one)  it WAS EXACTLY  the same world upto that point and thats just a few years before the 'launching' etc...  

BUT (!!!!)  Bookers world didnt have the Luteces or heading for its own 'Columbia' ???  Or have the Lutece unit her/him doing EXACTLY  the same thing as in the other universe (or the universe would end because the beams crossed - or whatever).   That makes the TWO universes different all along the two multiversal parallel timelines doesnt it ? (cant have both of these be true).      A number of critics/reviewers mention they had SEVERE consistency problem with their "laws of how the universe worked" in this game.

So NOTHING is relevant now to our evil american history that Levine & Co prattle on and on about for years ???  (its like asking why there werent more minorities of Munchkins in the Wizard of Oz Movie 1939 - as it shows great relevance to our current society and its damnable shortcomings !!!!! (cuz they said so).


Heres a good one --- > Since "memories are reshaped when you enter the new universe"   maybe Booker NEVER knew Sioux back in his universe and he was now just absorbing Comstocks past (in his now significantly different universe) and thinks he did all that stuff  (that is if everything CAN be different now as you posit).


3) Well look at the Mormon story which actually built upon decades of events (before and after Joseph Smith's involvement - he was killed while they were still in Illinois...).  The problem with Comstock's 'religion' was that the 'christ' that makes it 'christian'  isnt there and he adds in those idolotrous founding fathers aspect.  Thinking about it now, Comstock probably would have been stoned and driven out of just about every community he tried to sell that in (99.5% of all the universes, he probably was killed before he ever got near the US Congress).   Any Congressman or Representative would have treated him as political poison (the pagan antics wouldnt go over with the constituents) - well there goes the funding...   (Jesus had the Essenes paving his way and a thousand years of prophets fortelling his coming and that whole Messiah thing, so even that wasnt just three years...).

Anyway its not that people are 'gullible' (and this is a bit more involved than a bumpkin buying some magic beans -its the whole religion thing that many people took REALLY seriously),   its HOW MANY people could Comstock possibly bamboozle   (the 'prophet' ability might wow them, but if he looks into parallel universes which ARENT the same then his predictions might be somewhat faulty, no?).


4) my use of "acceleration" was meant to mean 'still pushing it a bit' (but assuming it then possibly could be working with that extra time involvement) .   Its like the 'Intelligent life in the Universe equation  you start multiplying too many improbables and they quickly 'add up' to a astronomically small probability.  Ive just shifted the time to ease that a little (AFTER accepting all the weird fantasy science assumptions the writers created).   But we have to draw the line at a few things.

I'd actually go for  : a 'Tear' from another universe (where it was VERY different),  with them on the other side simply HANDING Lutece all this incredible stuff (maybe as a joke or part of a reality show or somethin) , and be able for US to completely ditch her having to build it herself  (rather difficult even if you're a universal genius, when you have none of  the knowhow, skills,  tools, materials existing yet to actually be ale to apply your theories).  All else (as you say) can follow as she (and later Fink) steal all the wonderous goodies to make possible  the wonderful game setting.


5)  Read the history of what took place in 1892.  Your assumptions about my understanding of religion are disproved above in (3)   Just because you can list unlikely exceptions ie 'recruited as a corporal' at 16 (with no previous army service) which is extremely unlikely/rare. (Officers you somehow mentioned  are a bit different and that doesnt apply here.)  Multiply all your string of improbabilities, as Ive mentioned above, and that makes it all rather contrived and bizaare seeming .  Its just a game.  Most players dont give a rat's ass about the plot or story, they just want to spatter blood, shoot things and feel empowered.  The sad thing is they COULD HAVE, with not much effort, written it better and kept it all straight (the historical likelyhoods anyway) .  But they didnt.  You have to remember  - They HYPED this game as if it was some great delivery of TRUTH ABOUT AMERICA, but to do that you have to pay attention to REAL details and how they REALLY fit together.   If it was just to be pure fantasy then there would be little issue.  Instead its just a bunch of BS.

75.36.136.209 15:17, July 17, 2016 (UTC)

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