Grace not a Dissident ?Edit
Pauper's_Drop_(Audio_Diary) Ryan: "been to Pauper's Drop, Bill? Listen: (the sound of Grace singing "When you're down and out," in a nightclub) Between each song, these Oblomovs hand out her manifesto."
A Close associate with Lamb... Eleanor, etc... Assisting disseminating Lambs propaganda.
A dissident, broadly defined, is a person who actively challenges an established doctrine, policy, or institution.
- Please remember to sign your posts. I don't see anything in Therapy with Grace 1 that indicates Grace is a dissident, just unhappy/unsatisfied with The Great Chain (Economic Ideal). Association with Lamb is not enough to get someone sent to Persephone. Simon Wales wasn't sent, neither was Stanley Poole.
- The manifesto was Lamb's not Grace's. The crowds came for Grace, but stayed for the solution to their unhappiness (unfortunately presented as Unity and Metamorphosis) which was handed out by Lamb's people. There's no indication that Grace owned or operated The Limbo Room, she was just an act, so how can she be blamed for the activities that occur on its premises?
- Grace is indirectly (or maybe passively) involved in opposing Ryan while James, Harold Parson, and the real political dissidents were actively involved.
- Unownshipper (talk) 22:36, July 3, 2014 (UTC)
- Allowing "Oblomovs hand out her manifesto" (Lambs anti-Rapturism manifesto) is an act of dissent (dissent is not limited to murdering children of the opposition like Daisy Fitzroy). Generally a business does not want trouble with the kind of thing that will scare away customers and bring down heat on the establishment (and if Grace 'just worked there' she would be concerned with sucha threat to her livelihood). These (assumed) 'crowds' all seemed to have dried up when the economic problems happened (Grace talks about money and not violence - at that point - being the issue) which makes the customers sound not like being 'poor' people, but people making a living and able to pay (people 'The Great Chain' seems to have worked for).
- Unhappy with the Great Chain a thing which doesnt prohibit others from assisting 'the down and out' (just like Ryan couldnt stop Fontaine or Lamb with their charities - they got into trouble when they openly endorse the overthrow of order in Rapture or committed crimes). In any case, it still seems illogical for a good artist to want to limit themselves to a tiny place like Rapture compared to exposing their art to the Whole world (unless they are fairly unsavory even to the quite liberal art world existing at that time). Graces issue might have been Racism to have her leave the World, but seems to see it in Rapture, whether real or imagined. Maybe the reality that most artists simply dont become rich as they might wish is in play here.
- no indication that Grace owned - doesnt much say one way or the other, but in any case the owners allowed the political action to take place in the Limbo Room, so Grace mustve gone along with it. Being friends with Sophia Lamb though hints at it being simply more than disinterested complacency.
- real political dissidents - still vague phraseology. So Graces dissent isnt 'real' ? and it isnt 'political' even though it seems to be dissenting the whole philosophy of society in Rapture?
- Perhaps for the verbage in the article it should be 'dangerous dissadents' - those who either resort to violence against the system or endores such violence, or actively stir up such actions in others. Grace being on the fringe of that. James, Harold Parson - we arent told the content of the materials they were distributing (or their speechifying) to gauge what their offense really is.
- Simon Wales wasn't sent, neither was Stanley Poole. Poole was Ryans agent (anyway with little detail of what he did beyond manage Dionysus Park which BTW Ryan didnt destroy in a pique of revenge or whatever). Wales we dont know when Lamb 'hooked him' or how public he was about his support or what actions he took (he apparently was one of Lambs patients earlier). Remember we only see him by 1968 and have little detail of what he did before that (and when Ryan was still alive)
- 220.127.116.11 01:45, July 4, 2014 (UTC)
- OMG how hypercritical can one person get?! You know what I mean by this yet you insist on blowing everthing into hyperbolic dimensions.
- "those who either resort to violence against the system or endores such violence, or actively stir up such actions in others." How do YOU know that ANYONE sent to Persephone for political reasons (AKA not the actual criminals) was violent?
- Organizing people politically or speaking out is the total antithesis of violent action. It's democratic politics! People might have signed on for a form of governement, but when enough call for a change, different political parties/movements form! That's freedom of choice! Stamping out that procedure by banishing/imprisoning those who disagree is political oppression.
- "they got into trouble when they openly endorse the overthrow of order in Rapture or committed crimes" For Pete's sake! Who called for the overthrow of order? Are you mistaking Lamb for Atlas? Lamb advocated for collectivism, but she never called for anarachy or class warfare! Can you not even see the difference?
- Also your being rather condescending with your put-downs against all the artists in Rapture. YOU don't know their reasons for coming to Rapture. It might not of been b/c they were failing artistically on the surface. Maybe it was racism, but maybe it was also fear of Nuclear Apocalypse, McCarthyism, the desire for a new life, etc, but nope, they must've just sucked and come to Rapture, huh?
Grace not a Dissident (continued)?Edit
Consider - Are we ever really told how many people actually WERE even sent to Persephone for political reasons (lots of criminals there if you listen to the Audio Diaries in the place). Sinclair made use of Lamb to try to make prisoners more docile - Sounds like violent criminals/deranged splicers - were they the majority?. Did we ever get a headcount on how many 'Rapture Family members ever were sent there (and perhaps many werent 'exiled permanently either) Or how many for political reasons had committed crimes they could be jailed for as common criminals?
All very vague detailwise, and so much is assumed from just a handful of people making Audio Diaries.
- "Organizing people politically or speaking out is the total antithesis of violent action "
- is an incorrect statement. 'Organizing people' can lead directly to those people taking action (possibly Violent - like Atlas stirring up Riots even if he didnt take part himself) or 'speaking out' -- again loudly denouncing the 'enemy' (which is sometimes called rabblerousing) which ALSO can lead to inspiring others to take violent action).
- Lamb seized control of Persephone, No? Thats not overthrowing the existing order ??
- Lamb : They mistake my study of natural law for the worship of competition. Remember, Eleanor -- one must know the beast before it can be slain. <<< nah, no violent intent here ?? Oh its metaphorical, but 'slain' is a synonym for 'kill' or 'destroy' isnt it ??
- Your mild term 'collective' for what Lamb preached (in Unity & Metamorphosis) expresses her detesting of free will and freedom and the existance of the rights of any individual. THAT is a total antithesis of what Rapture was founded upon and what the people came for. There is a point where 'free speech' becomes propagandizing for overthrowing society. As youve said we dont have alot of information but consider : One of my own people has been feeding Ryan evidence of my activities, and now I am to be detained. As a religion, they merely monitored us. But as a commune, they would see us crucified. 'Commune' is a synonym for 'diminished individual freedom'.
- Now who is speechifying in hyperbole? 'All artists' ? And again why should most artists come to Rapture when the world they are leaving is not a problem for them? In the West, artistic freedom was significant and even had the collusion of 'art critics' who had to always sell something 'new' no matter how bad it was (and artists from elsewhere might be escaping other circumstances - like from Eastern Europe, but then they could have just as well gotten to 'the West' as to Rapture). Rapture was supposed to give them the Freedom of expression, but not mandate that they would make a living at it or force others to appreciate it (just like on the Surface). So a limited venue for 'customers' doesnt make sense for those with talent and who were ambitious.
- As for all your other reasons those can go for anyone not just artists. Even McCartyism could be escaped by moving somewhere else (ie- if one was a serious communist by going to Russia ...). BTW, it has been historically proven that McCarthy was actually right - the facts are in the Russian Archives opened since the Soviet Union fell. The intent of the historic Communists can hardly be denied and it was a serious threat to freedom in the world.
- 18.104.22.168 13:40, July 5, 2014 (UTC)
- What do you want? A prison roster? The fact that people were "disappeared" in the night (a number for political reasons) and erased from the records rather than being given a public trial or basic human rights in a proper prison, do we REALLY need to explain why that's bad?
- Can lead to rabble rousing and riots?!?! Wow…I have no words. That's what you think of political protest? That it just automatically leads to that? Or are you justifying crushing any opposition so that there won't be even the slightest chance of rabble rousing and riots (<==That's the right thing to do?)? You really think the learned and politically active upperclass or the hardworking and ambitious lower clas citizens of Rapture would just immediately turn to pitchforks and torches instead of attempting political discourse on a higher level?
- "the world they are leaving is not a problem for them?" How many times must a viable answer be given?
- I had a feeling this discussion was going nowhere, but if you're really going to try and defend Joseph McCarthy then I really have nothing else to say. If I may reword a more well-known quote, "to withdraw in disgust is not the same as conceding a point."
- Unownshipper (talk) 01:07, July 7, 2014 (UTC)
- The fact that people were "disappeared" in the night (a number for political reasons) what fact ? Theres no 'fact' just vague insinuations. If you want to be a stickler for details, you cant make such assumptions at teh same time complaining about other peoples opinions and assumptions.
- rather than being given a public trial - again no information one way or the other and your assumption she wasnt.
- basic human rights in a proper prison - Persephone wasnt a proper prison and she was even given employment and freedoms that people in OUR prisons today wouldnt want ????
- do we REALLY need to explain - do I really need to explain whats wrong with making all these assumptions when denying the possibility that the vagueness as presented can be interpretted in a different way than your own?
- lead to rabble rousing and riots?!?! Wow…I have no words. - and your saying that they cannot is supposed to be the Truth ? I said nothing about 'automatically', that is just your assumption. I assume its possible, and for the timeframe when this was all happening it was before the war for Raptures survival started in Ryans mind where stronger methods (War Measures) that he didnt want to use but saw no recourse to using were neccessary.
- Or are you justifying crushing - again your assumption. For being an alleged tyrant, Ryan was downright liberal in what he put up with (understanding that his philosophy allowed substantial Free Speech -- UP TO A POINT --- as it always is until such activities endanger the whole society when abused by those seeking to destroy society.
- instead of attempting political discourse on a higher level - the writers of the game seem to have left that out. Their (game writers) motive in BS1 was to make Ryan the cartoon villian so that Atlas could manipulate Jack to empower their mid game 'Twist'. What might the game be like if you heard early on some of the propaganda from Atlas seen in BaS that might tip off Jack (the Player) as to what Atlas really was, and why you so blythely were going along with what he told you to do and to believe???
- defend Joseph McCarthy You might yourself investigate what has come to light recently (since Soviet secret archives were opened up) showing that fundamentally what McCarthy was talking about was true (you can find the facts for yourself, if you dont trust what Ive mentioned). He turned himself into a clown with the help of left leaning media and has been denounced widely by them and those with a similar agenda ever since, but it doesnt change the FACT that what he was talking about was largely reality.
- 22.214.171.124 06:25, July 7, 2014 (UTC)
Test maps Edit
Just leaving this here, I found mention of two test maps for BioShock 2 in the strings of texts for the game. Considering they are not among the common map files, I guess they were probably removed from the game prior to release. Anyway, they go by the names of AI Test World (or ai_test_world) and Test World (or test_world). Pauolo (talk) 10:23, May 17, 2015 (UTC)
- Maybe something we should add to BioShock 2 Removed Content? —Mainframe98 talk·blog·edits 12:33, May 17, 2015 (UTC)
- Hard to say, but it sounds like this isn't "removed" so much as it's just a testing area. It is clearly in the game files, and it's not meant to be something that the player could explore, just a practice world. In that sense, it's not cut content.